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Upgraded Saxon Patrol to plod on until 2015.

lanky

Old-Salt
FFBox said:
Too good for the likes of us, I mean it works & is in service.....

And best of all it can be carried underneath a helicopter, even Merlin. Honestly will the future FRES (I can't remember what it is called) be that much better? It certainly will cost a lot, and it will not replace Warrior anyway. So why not grab Viking now?
 

Cardinal

War Hero
Mike_2817 said:
Cardinal said:
FFBox said:
Too good for the likes of us, I mean it works & is in service.....

See what happens when the MOD keeps its nose out? The company making Viking had a long relationship going back decades with the RM/RN with the BV202, 204 and 206.Cardinal

The Army had/has stocks of BV Snow Cats for AMF(L) and always had a good logistics relationship with the RM's Workshop which was RAOC - RLC/REME run anyway. I do not see why Viking should not be in Army Service as well.

No reason at all. The Viking is a well designed, capable and above all because of its development history/arrangements highly affordable.

The more we buy the more others are encouraged to purchase and the unit cost to us is further discounted.

Cardinal
 

Cardinal

War Hero
HeavyHorse said:
Wouldn't Spartan be useful in this role or not enough troop capacicty? Just trying to think of other vehicles which are available off the shelf now...

The enlarged Spartan called Stormer always looked like it had valuable potential light, fast, available, CVRT spares and training. Basic but good.

Cardinal
 

dutch_paddy

Old-Salt
Dread said:
Edited to change: correct, but by the time the construction had started he had been deposed.

The Shah did order (and get) Chieftan tanks, but was deposed before Saxon could be delivered. So yes, by the time they go out of service these hunks of cráp will be 40 years old.

On another topic completely: a friend of mine has just won a 15 year contract with the MoD for repairs to some variants of the 432. How good were the procurement team he negotiated with? Put it this way: he arrived at a very generous figure for his costs (always looking worst case scenario). He then factored in a healthy profit margin. Then he multiplied all his figures by 3 and they were accepted. Nice to see that the comfy chairs in MoD main building are being put to a good use.

Good Skills! ******* idiots
 

dutch_paddy

Old-Salt
Dread said:
Edited to change: correct, but by the time the construction had started he had been deposed.

The Shah did order (and get) Chieftan tanks, but was deposed before Saxon could be delivered. So yes, by the time they go out of service these hunks of cráp will be 40 years old.

On another topic completely: a friend of mine has just won a 15 year contract with the MoD for repairs to some variants of the 432. How good were the procurement team he negotiated with? Put it this way: he arrived at a very generous figure for his costs (always looking worst case scenario). He then factored in a healthy profit margin. Then he multiplied all his figures by 3 and they were accepted. Nice to see that the comfy chairs in MoD main building are being put to a good use.

GOOD SKILLS! Business is business, just shows you what ******* are are incharge of procurement.

Speeling!
 

nasch

Old-Salt
My understanding is that SAXON was originally designed to ferry forward UK based troops to reinforce BAOR. What was therefore required was something reasonably fast (as covering large distances - therefore wheeled), with a basic off road capability (to manouevre across / around bits of autobahn that had been hit, rather than conducting cross country moves), and with basic protection against shrapnel (from nuisance bombardment into rear areas, rather than direct or observed attack). It actually performs rather well against these criteria. It's just that the world has rather moved on since then...

VIKING is undoubtedly a hoofing bit of kit. However, it isn't perfect (what is?) and, in particular, don't make too much of its underslingability (if I can make a word up!) - think about how many CH47 would be required to lift even a Pl's worth forward. Then think how useful that would be. Yes, it is a capability, but it's not the most important of VK's capabilities, even if it is one of the 'sexiest'.
 

Cardinal

War Hero
Affordable, available alternatives to Saxon would include variations of the LAV used by the US Army and a different variation by the USMC, Canada and Australia. A highly versitile multi role vehicle.

There are also a host of similar vehicles built in other nations, I was almost boared to tears listening tio the virtues of the wheeled LAV type vehicle used by the Finns, after some British soldiers had worked with them.

Stormer in service with the RA, CVRT spares and training, does what it says on the box, and of course Viking amongst a host of others.

The problem isn't availablity or even affordability its the way the MOD purchases kit.

if I can refer to a naval example that shows the dreadful way our MOD spends money its the new aircraft carriers. Some years ago the RN was told it was to get two new super carriers of 50-60,000 tons to replace its existing three 20,000 ton carriers, HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Queen Elizabeth (unlucky names for British warships).

About the same time Italy announced it was going to build a 30,000 ton carrier the Cavour. Where Italy spent one year examining various plans and working out the details and just six months awarding contracts, we spent tens of milllions of pounds and many years in competitive tendering, study groups, management oversight groups, gateway project management, artists impressions, models, contract sharing arrrangements with France.

Italy's Cavour, is currently sailing up and down the Med and will be in service with the Italian Navy sometime this year. The MOD has now spent more on our carriers than Italy has on its, but where Italy has 30,000 tons of steel we have some lovely artists impressions, a few models and bugger all else. In broad terms we have spent roughly 10 million pounds more on nothing than Italy has on its new vessel.

Sorry to give a naval, rather than an army, example of why we cannot afford anything but it is relivant and the lessons apply almost accross the board. From Bootlaces to Bowman, Tinned food to Tanks the MOD is a financial "black hole" we have a huge defence budget most of which is swallowed up by men in suits so our actual expendeture on the services is very small indeed.

It doesn't even help our Defence industry, since foreign customers dont want to buy kit they feel our services dont want themselves, so they go to France and Italy instead. There is enough cash to have a bigger better equipped armed forces but the money is going adrift.

Cardinal
 

msr

LE
And given the way the MOD are currently signing up for PFI deals, we will be in hock for decades to come.

msr
 

lanky

Old-Salt
Cardinal said:
Affordable, available alternatives to Saxon would include variations of the LAV used by the US Army and a different variation by the USMC, Canada and Australia. A highly versitile multi role vehicle.

There are also a host of similar vehicles built in other nations, I was almost boared to tears listening tio the virtues of the wheeled LAV type vehicle used by the Finns, after some British soldiers had worked with them.

Stormer in service with the RA, CVRT spares and training, does what it says on the box, and of course Viking amongst a host of others.

The problem isn't availablity or even affordability its the way the MOD purchases kit.

if I can refer to a naval example that shows the dreadful way our MOD spends money its the new aircraft carriers. Some years ago the RN was told it was to get two new super carriers of 50-60,000 tons to replace its existing three 20,000 ton carriers, HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Queen Elizabeth (unlucky names for British warships).

About the same time Italy announced it was going to build a 30,000 ton carrier the Cavour. Where Italy spent one year examining various plans and working out the details and just six months awarding contracts, we spent tens of milllions of pounds and many years in competitive tendering, study groups, management oversight groups, gateway project management, artists impressions, models, contract sharing arrrangements with France.

Italy's Cavour, is currently sailing up and down the Med and will be in service with the Italian Navy sometime this year. The MOD has now spent more on our carriers than Italy has on its, but where Italy has 30,000 tons of steel we have some lovely artists impressions, a few models and bugger all else. In broad terms we have spent roughly 10 million pounds more on nothing than Italy has on its new vessel.

Sorry to give a naval, rather than an army, example of why we cannot afford anything but it is relivant and the lessons apply almost accross the board. From Bootlaces to Bowman, Tinned food to Tanks the MOD is a financial "black hole" we have a huge defence budget most of which is swallowed up by men in suits so our actual expendeture on the services is very small indeed.

It doesn't even help our Defence industry, since foreign customers dont want to buy kit they feel our services dont want themselves, so they go to France and Italy instead. There is enough cash to have a bigger better equipped armed forces but the money is going adrift.

Cardinal

It is a nice ship, but can carry only 8 JSFs... as opposed to about 45 aircraft on the RN's CVF. Basically she is a pimped up CVS. A good ship for pottering around the med, but nowhere near as good as CVF for blue water ops.
 

lanky

Old-Salt
But to go back to the earlier posts: Viking is already battle proven, it is already being supported by the Army/RM and it can go into a Herc (I think) etc. Will FRES be any better?
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
FRES probably will be better. In 10-15 years' time, when it actually goes into first line service.

In the meantime, heeeeere's SAXON!

Hoorah.
 

Cardinal

War Hero
Ever wondered where the old Saracens went? (hope I'm not confusing them with Saladin)

Well a whole lot went west to the USA where they are used as Police SWAT APC's. New diesel engines, automatic drive, steering and suspension, brakes, comms fit, improved vision/night vision and upgraded armour, run flat tires the pressure of which can be controlled fom inside. They are painted matt, IRR absorbant, black and look about as modern as one can get without going SciFi.

Apparently the company who does the work brought over 100 from us, some others from film makers and after rebuild sold them to several US Police and law enforcement agencies and is now looking for more, such is the demand.

Better than improved Saxon or what?

Cardinal
 
"Lions,donkeys and dinosaurs" by Lewis Page is a good read and shows just how bad our goverment are when it comes to defence planning.He's ex RN i belive
 

Cardinal

War Hero
lanky said:
Cardinal said:
Affordable, available alternatives to Saxon would include variations of the LAV used by the US Army and a different variation by the USMC, Canada and Australia. A highly versitile multi role vehicle.

There are also a host of similar vehicles built in other nations, I was almost boared to tears listening tio the virtues of the wheeled LAV type vehicle used by the Finns, after some British soldiers had worked with them.

Stormer in service with the RA, CVRT spares and training, does what it says on the box, and of course Viking amongst a host of others.

The problem isn't availablity or even affordability its the way the MOD purchases kit.

if I can refer to a naval example that shows the dreadful way our MOD spends money its the new aircraft carriers. Some years ago the RN was told it was to get two new super carriers of 50-60,000 tons to replace its existing three 20,000 ton carriers, HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Queen Elizabeth (unlucky names for British warships).

About the same time Italy announced it was going to build a 30,000 ton carrier the Cavour. Where Italy spent one year examining various plans and working out the details and just six months awarding contracts, we spent tens of milllions of pounds and many years in competitive tendering, study groups, management oversight groups, gateway project management, artists impressions, models, contract sharing arrrangements with France.

Italy's Cavour, is currently sailing up and down the Med and will be in service with the Italian Navy sometime this year. The MOD has now spent more on our carriers than Italy has on its, but where Italy has 30,000 tons of steel we have some lovely artists impressions, a few models and bugger all else. In broad terms we have spent roughly 10 million pounds more on nothing than Italy has on its new vessel.

Sorry to give a naval, rather than an army, example of why we cannot afford anything but it is relivant and the lessons apply almost accross the board. From Bootlaces to Bowman, Tinned food to Tanks the MOD is a financial "black hole" we have a huge defence budget most of which is swallowed up by men in suits so our actual expendeture on the services is very small indeed.

It doesn't even help our Defence industry, since foreign customers dont want to buy kit they feel our services dont want themselves, so they go to France and Italy instead. There is enough cash to have a bigger better equipped armed forces but the money is going adrift.

Cardinal

It is a nice ship, but can carry only 8 JSFs... as opposed to about 45 aircraft on the RN's CVF. Basically she is a pimped up CVS. A good ship for pottering around the med, but nowhere near as good as CVF for blue water ops.

Yes, the Cavour does only carry 8 JSF but I understood thats when its also acting as an LPH with helecopters and embarked troops as well. My point is its real, it exists and floats whereas the CVF might well be cancelled over the next few months.

I heard a rumour, from a good source, that when Blair steps down Brown will announce a whole lot of bad news for the MOD. Because he will be our bright new shining hope, gracing the sofa at GMTV and chatting up the blonde bimbo whilst appealing to the thick as sh*t eliment of the masses, he will get away with it.

Cardinal
 
Still not sure exactly what the point under debate here is...

- Armd Inf are equiped with Warrior.

- Mech Inf are (being) equipped with Bulldog as a stop-gap until FRES arrives.

- Mastiff will be used a a 'medium' PPV.

Saxon Patrol will remain in a number of specialist roles, such as ambulance, air defence command vehicle etc. Nobody is talking about using it in a frontline role, for which the above vehicles are used. Besides, the talk of Saxon being under-armour compared to 'off-the shelf' kit is BS - vehicles such as LAV would have to be up-armoured to meet even the same level of protection as a baseline Saxon GWR - the patrol variant is further up-armoured, and includes a whole range of further survivability measures leant the hard way in NI.

Anyway, I digress. Saxon is not being used as a piece of frontline equipment, and as such it beats a Bedford, Landrover of Shanks' Pony for a whole number of people in this man's army.

As for Viking - a very well put together vehicle, but designed for a specialist application. It is NOT an IFV or a PPV, and trying to use it as such would lead to tears.
 
An orifice of my acquaintance witnessed the trials of Saxon and swore blind that it was invulnerable to 7.62; only half-inch ammo could penetrate-and that only on the armour welds. I recall BG attacks on Salisbury Plain in the early Eighties where our Chieftains were followed up by infantry on Bedfords with the sides removed.

Shame the UK dropped out of the Boxer programme after wasting dosh on it's development.
 
but could you convert a surplus one into a camper van javascript:emoticon('post', 'message', ':headbang:')
Headbang
 
ObnoxiousJockGit said:
An orifice of my acquaintance witnessed the trials of Saxon and swore blind that it was invulnerable to 7.62; only half-inch ammo could penetrate-and that only on the armour welds. I recall BG attacks on Salisbury Plain in the early Eighties where our Chieftains were followed up by infantry on Bedfords with the sides removed.

Shame the UK dropped out of the Boxer programme after wasting dosh on it's development.

Boxer....nice but a real "Heavyweight" (Pardon the pun.")
 
Active_Edge_841 said:
*Heart monitors, defibulators, spine boards, etc.*

Though I see them referred to often, I've never seen a real life defibulator, nor worked out what it actually is - a device for extracting fibulas, perhaps? I'm sure a defibrillator would be a much more useful bit of kit on an ambulance. :shakefist:
 
EX_STAB said:
Themanwho said:
Just what we need, Bedford-in-a-tin struggling on for another decade, wasting manpower and resources on what must surely be the single most useless vehicle ever used by the British Army. Well I say used, obviously I mean spends most of it's time parked up on the square or in the REME workshop.

Shame I can't find a picture of the "Glanville Fighter Car" a one man armoured Morris car with two fixed forward firing machine guns.

Saxon is cr4p though.

Would this be it?
Morris Armoured Car
 

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