Army Rumour Service
Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Upgraded Saxon Patrol to plod on until 2015.
- Thread starter Active_Edge_841
- Start date
dutch_paddy
Old-Salt
Dread said:
Good Skills! ******* idiots
dutch_paddy
Old-Salt
Dread said:
GOOD SKILLS! Business is business, just shows you what ******* are are incharge of procurement.
Speeling!
My understanding is that SAXON was originally designed to ferry forward UK based troops to reinforce BAOR. What was therefore required was something reasonably fast (as covering large distances - therefore wheeled), with a basic off road capability (to manouevre across / around bits of autobahn that had been hit, rather than conducting cross country moves), and with basic protection against shrapnel (from nuisance bombardment into rear areas, rather than direct or observed attack). It actually performs rather well against these criteria. It's just that the world has rather moved on since then...
VIKING is undoubtedly a hoofing bit of kit. However, it isn't perfect (what is?) and, in particular, don't make too much of its underslingability (if I can make a word up!) - think about how many CH47 would be required to lift even a Pl's worth forward. Then think how useful that would be. Yes, it is a capability, but it's not the most important of VK's capabilities, even if it is one of the 'sexiest'.
VIKING is undoubtedly a hoofing bit of kit. However, it isn't perfect (what is?) and, in particular, don't make too much of its underslingability (if I can make a word up!) - think about how many CH47 would be required to lift even a Pl's worth forward. Then think how useful that would be. Yes, it is a capability, but it's not the most important of VK's capabilities, even if it is one of the 'sexiest'.
Affordable, available alternatives to Saxon would include variations of the LAV used by the US Army and a different variation by the USMC, Canada and Australia. A highly versitile multi role vehicle.
There are also a host of similar vehicles built in other nations, I was almost boared to tears listening tio the virtues of the wheeled LAV type vehicle used by the Finns, after some British soldiers had worked with them.
Stormer in service with the RA, CVRT spares and training, does what it says on the box, and of course Viking amongst a host of others.
The problem isn't availablity or even affordability its the way the MOD purchases kit.
if I can refer to a naval example that shows the dreadful way our MOD spends money its the new aircraft carriers. Some years ago the RN was told it was to get two new super carriers of 50-60,000 tons to replace its existing three 20,000 ton carriers, HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Queen Elizabeth (unlucky names for British warships).
About the same time Italy announced it was going to build a 30,000 ton carrier the Cavour. Where Italy spent one year examining various plans and working out the details and just six months awarding contracts, we spent tens of milllions of pounds and many years in competitive tendering, study groups, management oversight groups, gateway project management, artists impressions, models, contract sharing arrrangements with France.
Italy's Cavour, is currently sailing up and down the Med and will be in service with the Italian Navy sometime this year. The MOD has now spent more on our carriers than Italy has on its, but where Italy has 30,000 tons of steel we have some lovely artists impressions, a few models and bugger all else. In broad terms we have spent roughly 10 million pounds more on nothing than Italy has on its new vessel.
Sorry to give a naval, rather than an army, example of why we cannot afford anything but it is relivant and the lessons apply almost accross the board. From Bootlaces to Bowman, Tinned food to Tanks the MOD is a financial "black hole" we have a huge defence budget most of which is swallowed up by men in suits so our actual expendeture on the services is very small indeed.
It doesn't even help our Defence industry, since foreign customers dont want to buy kit they feel our services dont want themselves, so they go to France and Italy instead. There is enough cash to have a bigger better equipped armed forces but the money is going adrift.
Cardinal
There are also a host of similar vehicles built in other nations, I was almost boared to tears listening tio the virtues of the wheeled LAV type vehicle used by the Finns, after some British soldiers had worked with them.
Stormer in service with the RA, CVRT spares and training, does what it says on the box, and of course Viking amongst a host of others.
The problem isn't availablity or even affordability its the way the MOD purchases kit.
if I can refer to a naval example that shows the dreadful way our MOD spends money its the new aircraft carriers. Some years ago the RN was told it was to get two new super carriers of 50-60,000 tons to replace its existing three 20,000 ton carriers, HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Queen Elizabeth (unlucky names for British warships).
About the same time Italy announced it was going to build a 30,000 ton carrier the Cavour. Where Italy spent one year examining various plans and working out the details and just six months awarding contracts, we spent tens of milllions of pounds and many years in competitive tendering, study groups, management oversight groups, gateway project management, artists impressions, models, contract sharing arrrangements with France.
Italy's Cavour, is currently sailing up and down the Med and will be in service with the Italian Navy sometime this year. The MOD has now spent more on our carriers than Italy has on its, but where Italy has 30,000 tons of steel we have some lovely artists impressions, a few models and bugger all else. In broad terms we have spent roughly 10 million pounds more on nothing than Italy has on its new vessel.
Sorry to give a naval, rather than an army, example of why we cannot afford anything but it is relivant and the lessons apply almost accross the board. From Bootlaces to Bowman, Tinned food to Tanks the MOD is a financial "black hole" we have a huge defence budget most of which is swallowed up by men in suits so our actual expendeture on the services is very small indeed.
It doesn't even help our Defence industry, since foreign customers dont want to buy kit they feel our services dont want themselves, so they go to France and Italy instead. There is enough cash to have a bigger better equipped armed forces but the money is going adrift.
Cardinal
Ever wondered where the old Saracens went? (hope I'm not confusing them with Saladin)
Well a whole lot went west to the USA where they are used as Police SWAT APC's. New diesel engines, automatic drive, steering and suspension, brakes, comms fit, improved vision/night vision and upgraded armour, run flat tires the pressure of which can be controlled fom inside. They are painted matt, IRR absorbant, black and look about as modern as one can get without going SciFi.
Apparently the company who does the work brought over 100 from us, some others from film makers and after rebuild sold them to several US Police and law enforcement agencies and is now looking for more, such is the demand.
Better than improved Saxon or what?
Cardinal
Well a whole lot went west to the USA where they are used as Police SWAT APC's. New diesel engines, automatic drive, steering and suspension, brakes, comms fit, improved vision/night vision and upgraded armour, run flat tires the pressure of which can be controlled fom inside. They are painted matt, IRR absorbant, black and look about as modern as one can get without going SciFi.
Apparently the company who does the work brought over 100 from us, some others from film makers and after rebuild sold them to several US Police and law enforcement agencies and is now looking for more, such is the demand.
Better than improved Saxon or what?
Cardinal
lanky said:
Yes, the Cavour does only carry 8 JSF but I understood thats when its also acting as an LPH with helecopters and embarked troops as well. My point is its real, it exists and floats whereas the CVF might well be cancelled over the next few months.
I heard a rumour, from a good source, that when Blair steps down Brown will announce a whole lot of bad news for the MOD. Because he will be our bright new shining hope, gracing the sofa at GMTV and chatting up the blonde bimbo whilst appealing to the thick as sh*t eliment of the masses, he will get away with it.
Cardinal
Still not sure exactly what the point under debate here is...
- Armd Inf are equiped with Warrior.
- Mech Inf are (being) equipped with Bulldog as a stop-gap until FRES arrives.
- Mastiff will be used a a 'medium' PPV.
Saxon Patrol will remain in a number of specialist roles, such as ambulance, air defence command vehicle etc. Nobody is talking about using it in a frontline role, for which the above vehicles are used. Besides, the talk of Saxon being under-armour compared to 'off-the shelf' kit is BS - vehicles such as LAV would have to be up-armoured to meet even the same level of protection as a baseline Saxon GWR - the patrol variant is further up-armoured, and includes a whole range of further survivability measures leant the hard way in NI.
Anyway, I digress. Saxon is not being used as a piece of frontline equipment, and as such it beats a Bedford, Landrover of Shanks' Pony for a whole number of people in this man's army.
As for Viking - a very well put together vehicle, but designed for a specialist application. It is NOT an IFV or a PPV, and trying to use it as such would lead to tears.
- Armd Inf are equiped with Warrior.
- Mech Inf are (being) equipped with Bulldog as a stop-gap until FRES arrives.
- Mastiff will be used a a 'medium' PPV.
Saxon Patrol will remain in a number of specialist roles, such as ambulance, air defence command vehicle etc. Nobody is talking about using it in a frontline role, for which the above vehicles are used. Besides, the talk of Saxon being under-armour compared to 'off-the shelf' kit is BS - vehicles such as LAV would have to be up-armoured to meet even the same level of protection as a baseline Saxon GWR - the patrol variant is further up-armoured, and includes a whole range of further survivability measures leant the hard way in NI.
Anyway, I digress. Saxon is not being used as a piece of frontline equipment, and as such it beats a Bedford, Landrover of Shanks' Pony for a whole number of people in this man's army.
As for Viking - a very well put together vehicle, but designed for a specialist application. It is NOT an IFV or a PPV, and trying to use it as such would lead to tears.
ObnoxiousJockGit
GCM
An orifice of my acquaintance witnessed the trials of Saxon and swore blind that it was invulnerable to 7.62; only half-inch ammo could penetrate-and that only on the armour welds. I recall BG attacks on Salisbury Plain in the early Eighties where our Chieftains were followed up by infantry on Bedfords with the sides removed.
Shame the UK dropped out of the Boxer programme after wasting dosh on it's development.
Shame the UK dropped out of the Boxer programme after wasting dosh on it's development.
but could you convert a surplus one into a camper van javascript:emoticon('post', 'message', '
')
Headbang
')Headbang
Active_Edge_841
Old-Salt
ObnoxiousJockGit said:
Boxer....nice but a real "Heavyweight" (Pardon the pun.")
