Unusual WWII German aircraft prototypes

#4
Just be thankfull that these guys wasted so much time on experimental work that they never got the jets ready in time to become an effective weapon,though Adolf himself put the biggest boot in.

A mate in school was absolutely obsessed with the Luftwaffe and knew as a twelve year old all the different models and modifications,always wondered if he turned his hobby into a career.
 
#6
Glad it's of interest to some of you. I thought it would be. Amazing really how much effort the Germans wasted on experimental types generally, not just aircraft. They also continued to produce obsolete aircraft to the end of the war. Why they persisted with the BF109 when they could have put more effort into the vastly superior FW190 remains a mystery to me.

They did much the same with tanks.
 
#8
EX_STAB said:
Glad it's of interest to some of you. I thought it would be. Amazing really how much effort the Germans wasted on experimental types generally, not just aircraft. They also continued to produce obsolete aircraft to the end of the war. Why they persisted with the BF109 when they could have put more effort into the vastly superior FW190 remains a mystery to me.

They did much the same with tanks.
As a small pedantic note, the BF109 was not inferior to the FW190. Just finished reading a gunner's memoirs from B17's in WW2 (Combat Crew), in it he repeatedly states that the best German interceptor was the 109G.
 
#9
Take into account production times, and facility's which haven't been reduced to rubble....


That clicking sound you hear is me winding my neck in!
 
#10
RustyH said:
EX_STAB said:
Glad it's of interest to some of you. I thought it would be. Amazing really how much effort the Germans wasted on experimental types generally, not just aircraft. They also continued to produce obsolete aircraft to the end of the war. Why they persisted with the BF109 when they could have put more effort into the vastly superior FW190 remains a mystery to me.

They did much the same with tanks.
As a small pedantic note, the BF109 was not inferior to the FW190. Just finished reading a gunner's memoirs from B17's in WW2 (Combat Crew), in it he repeatedly states that the best German interceptor was the 109G.
With respect, is it not possible that he was wrong? Even the final models of Bf 109 weren't anywhere near the standard of the Fw190's from what I've read on the subject although I claim no particular expertise.

I recall that, strategically, the FW190 was less costly in materials and engineering than the Bf109 too. (But again I may be wrong) ;)
 

maguire

LE
Book Reviewer
#11
RustyH, most historians, and certainly pilots from the period would disagree. The Gustav was almost as far as it could be developed, and needed a skilled pilot to get the best out of it (which the Luftwaffe were lacking by 1943, when the USAAF day campaign got going) and didnt have the performance of the 190. It lacked the armament (unless carrying underwing cannon, which robbed it's speed) and was, by all accounts, problematic to handle - the weight had grown to the point where it had to kept at full throttle even in the landing pattern, and there was the saying about the two kinds of 109 pilot - those who had ground looped one, and those who were going to.
 
#12
Hello,
was it the Me109 which had a major problem with ground accidents due to the narrow undercarriage,a very large proportion being lost in that manner?
I recall (not from personal experience!) the Fw190 was more reliable and easier to maintain as well as safer.

tangosix
 

maguire

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
yep, hence the saying about the two types of 109 pilot. they had a very narrow undercarriage track as the gear legs were mounted on the fuselage, which made the overall construction as light as possible, and made transport easy, but made ground handling a challenge.
 
#14
I remember reading somewhere that a Luftwaffe pilot described the later variant 109s as being like a 'raddled old woman with too much makeup' after all the mods and bolt-ons required to make what was a good but old (and critically undersized) airframe survivable. Also mentioned was the fact that there was not an inch of space left under the skin which accounted for the bulges required to cover the cannon breeches.
 
#15
EX_STAB said:
Glad it's of interest to some of you. I thought it would be. Amazing really how much effort the Germans wasted on experimental types generally, not just aircraft. They also continued to produce obsolete aircraft to the end of the war. Why they persisted with the BF109 when they could have put more effort into the vastly superior FW190 remains a mystery to me.

They did much the same with tanks.
You need to read 'Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy' which I have just finished, a very interesting read, very well written and researched.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss...ruction&Go.x=13&Go.y=9&Go=Go&tag=armrumser-21

To be very brief, the Jerries never had enough coal or steel to meet their planned targets for new types of weapons or even old ones, because resources would be pulled away at random to meet sudden emergancies or fads ie ammo, panzers, u boats, ammo, trains, atlantikwall etc. long term planning was all over the place. In fact they never had more than 8 months reserves of steel or coal and often much less. Industry fought all the time to get steel to meet orders often nicking it when a rival was being unproductive ie. building a new factory to make say FW190's but not actually making any fighters that month. It was easier for industry to keep churning out ME109's on established production lines, and to be able to say they were making fighters even if they were no good. Being seen to be busy.

At the same time their design labs would always be knocking up new shiney prototypes hopefully to catch Adolfs eye and win a huge order, allowing a larger steel quota hopefully ringfenced by Adolfs approval. Until a new fad/emergancy happened.

Not very rational but there you go.

Look out for the book its well worth it, it has superb assesments concerning the pivotal role of the Strategic Air War that will really open your eyes. All of the recent 'bombing is a War crime and did nothing' opinion is throughly debunked.
 

maguire

LE
Book Reviewer
#16
even up to the end of the conflict their economy was never on a proper war footing was it? if they had started planning ahead in 1935 say things could have been very different indeed.
 
#17
Never mind talk of preparation, planning and economics, saw a similar design to sample aircraft, but a single engined bomber format. Flew for about a long as it took the alied pilots to work out what a fantastic blind spot the engine was!! Allowed lovely gentle climbing approach before ripping all eight browning .300's at point blank!
Saying that, some classic engineering designs by the germans. Just look at the MG43, rebranded the M60 as soon as possible by the septics (dont the defeated have copyright laws, or was it partof the marshal war damage reparation plans) If you get a chance, look at the Flight history place at East Fortune - oodles of nazi cannons and other air to air stuff rebranded with nato design numbers and service lifes into the sixties and seventies. Luckely hitler was big into micromanagement of the battlespace before either of these words existed.
 
#18
Didn't we do the Bf 109 landing caricteristics a year or so ago ?
33,000 built and wuz it 11,000 written off in Takeoff /Landing acccidents.
Memoery says the 109 topped out on the G model and by then, as has been said , it was becomming a difficult a/c to fly, not sutible for sprog pilots.
john
A very senior crab wrote off the the last flyable one in UK.
 
#19
Galland himself said the FW190 was the superior aircraft (Im assuming he meant the A8. The D9 was even better) but that a really first class pilot would be able to get more out of the ME109. Not that by 1944-45 there were many of them left.

There was been a lot written about the ME262 and how Hitler delayed it, but a number of historians have recently poured cold water on it. For starters the ME262 even by 1945 wasnt really ready for combat, and the engines blew up on them after regular hours of flight. They were really prototypes that went into mass production. The bomb racks were not really the problem, pilots were. Many of the pilots who converted over to them apparently had to be ex bomber pilots who were the only ones with multi engine experience. Unfortunately they didnt have any real air combat experience.

Hitler may have slightly delayed them getting into service, but its unlikely even if they did they would have achieved much. By that stage of the war they didnt have fuel to run the crates they already had.
 
#20
There was a programme on the Discovery channel a couple of weeks ago, that featured all of the Nazi funnies, one even went on to be the basis for the stealth bombers. They had a few jets in the pipeline, had the war carried on for a bit longer.
 

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