Unofficial Cadet Units - Help needed

Discussion in 'OTC and ACF' started by OldSnowy, Sep 30, 2009.

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  1. OldSnowy

    OldSnowy LE Moderator Book Reviewer

    I'm involved in a bit of a study regarding non-'official' Cadet Units. Most Cadet Units are either CCF, ACF, SCC, or ATC, which are sufficiently monitored and regulated to allow the MOD to indemnify the Adult Volunteers involved. There are a few other 'semi-official' groups (Girl's Venture Air Cadets, for example) but in the main, most Cadets are in one of the 'recognised' organisations.

    What is not known is how many other Cadet groups are running in the UK, that are outside the MOD's remit. There are a few which are well known, and highly reputable - such as the Frimley and Camberley Cadet Corps, which is a registered charity with a long and distinguished history, and which is affiliated to the PWRR - but we simply don't know how many others there are.

    I'd be most grateful for any contact details or info - either in this thread, or via PM if you wish.

    Three things to note:

    1. This is not a witch hunt. If someone wants to set up a Cadet Unit, then fair play to them (as long as they do it legally, CRB checks and all). In my view, anything that keeps youngsters off the streets is a good thing, and to be heartily encouraged. I’m only interested in getting some idea of the numbers involved.
    2. This is not limited to the Army - I am asking the same question on RumRation, as the biggest area of interest appears to be maritime-type Cadets.
    3. Don’t expect this to result in either new regulations to ‘control’ Cadet Units, nor conversely for it to mean any support, financial or otherwise, to such Units!

    Thanks in advance for any (sensible) help.
  2. SCC and Marine Cadets do not come under the MOD umbrella, which has pros and cons for that organisation.

    I think there is an an independent cadet unit in Nottingham or thereabouts. Look closely at some of these independents and the dreaded Legion of Frontiersmen is often nearby and closely linked.

    There used to be LoF Cadets in Kent and Surrey IIRC. CRB failures and other Child protection issues usually sound the death knell on these organisations.
  3. OldSnowy

    OldSnowy LE Moderator Book Reviewer

    The Marine and Sea Cadet Society aren't MOD run, but are MOD sponsored - in other words, they are pretty 'official' and can use MOD facilities, etc. In this, as in so many other things, the RN is different :)

    Interesting comment on the LoF - that's another line of investigation to be followed....
  4. Oh you certainly want to to be taking a look at that lot!

    Here's a contact for you:
  5. woopert

    woopert LE Moderator

    I think this issue is where trusteeship of the facilities lie.

    I was a cadet in the ATC, so I know the MoD owns the buildings, and they are administered on a geographic "Wing" structure with HQ staff. The individual Sqns have a reasonable degree of autonomy with a Civilian Committee responsible for fundraising and support and who also reccommend to Wing various things like adult appointments.

    I'm not familiar with the SCC, but I understand they are MoD sponsored and operate as a charity.

    The ACF has much closer ties with the TA and has little direct committee or parental/community involvement in its running and Det Cdrs have less autonomy than the other 2 organisations.

    I was aware of organisations like the Venture Air Cadets and the like because it was covered in the history bit of the cadet's training syllabus, but in all the things I did as a cadet in the late 80's/early 90's I never once came across a member of any of them. We did occaionsally bump into the RAF Sect of the CCF at camps, but it was rare. Certainly when I was a kid I knew of the Venture Scouts, St John's Ambulance, and an organisation that used to get involved in a lot of the show jumping events who I can't recall the name of (but to a hormonal teenage boy it was heaven helping out at show jumping events with a group of jodphur clad, horse-mad girls!). I never once came accross anything like a LoF cadet unit or anything similar to it.
  6. For 'reasonable degree of autonomy' read lack of support or direction from CofC. Civcoms role is fundraising. Only the Sqn CO can make reccomendation about sqn staff but the civcomcan make reccomendations only for civcom appointments. A sqn is only successful if it has a) A civcom who can pull in plenty of ackers on a regular basis, and b) a dynamic sqn command that can spend the money in an imaginitive way. Too many sqns have neither a nor b added with no support from above, make for dull sqns.

    I have heard that there is a squadron in Surrey whose civcom has £2.5m in he bank and that the squadron is amply equipped on the interest alone! But don't fall into the trap of thinking the ATC is rich. Neighbouring sqns will as likely not have a pot to piss in, because this money the Sqn's civcom money, not the ATC's money.

    The way the ATC is run it's like lots of little ATCs, all on their own. A few do very well, most get by and a few fail miserably.

    The ACF's informal links with the TA can be of great benefit to Coys or detachments, but the Adult staff need to work on it to ensure it happens. Sometimes it gets overlooked, because many are busy dealing with ACF matters first and foremost. I'm not sure what the ACF gets from its formal links/CofC to the TA in my area. There are civcom's but they work at regimental/county/sector HQ level and are quite successful. Jack Petchey money is a regular financial gift to the ACF, which is appreciated and well spent.

    The Autonomy word again, But in the ACF the difference is more support and direction from Coy/County HQ. Many Coys operate as Coys first, dets second. This is drummed into cadets and adults on joining and despite different cap badges we all work together. So what appears to be less autonomy, is in fact a more robust support structure than the ATC have. This is maybe why the ACF can still have some fun, share the workload, and not burn out their staff, like the ATC do all too often today.

    If you'd ever come across Y****** K***** from the Surrey GVC you'd remember her. Massive norks and gagging for it too. Had a face like a bulldog licking piss of a nettle but the huge chesticles meant she had to fight us off with a shitty stick. Used to hang around my old sqn because she loved the attention we gave her. The rest of the GVC were flat chested mingers.

    For one year ('86?) they had the gig at Biggin Hill airshow and did barrier and car parking duties. They made a complete balls up of it* and the ATC got the job from there on in. It's become a chore now and the cadets hate it. Kent Wing have also made it compulsorary attendance for cadets and staff (without pay)

    *But no doubt awarded themselves hundreds of medals and titles afterwards and agreed with each other what a success the weekend was :roll:
  7. What about the Frimley and Camberley Cadet Corps started over 100 years ago (i think) affliated to the PWRR and previously Queens Regiment. Piggy backs quite well off Surrey ACF and generally attends the same annual camp locations. You can start at 5 years old in blue company and stay to 18 but generally as they get older pass into the ACF
  8. There are Police Cadets in Lincoln and various rescue cadets somewhere beachy.

    Don't get where you're going with this though....

    the term cadet is not copyrighted by the MoD, nor is Brigade but we have Boys' Brigades, Church Lad's Brigades, Jewish Church Lads' Brigades and assorted other youth orgs....

    Certainly the Boys' Brigade was set up by a TA Officer, and most of its officers were drawn from the reserves, it has military ranks and organisation yet is hardly confusable with the Army. Indeed, although the Cadets can trace their history to before teh BB, the Cadets as we know them today (ie a Youth Org came AFTER the BB, as did the Scouts.

    So perhaps a list of non BB affiliated uniformed youth organsations is in order?
  9. Also seen Police Cadets in Bournemouth, Eastbourne and London. They often get used as test purchasers for tobacco and alcohol I've heard!

    Heard of Fire Service Cadets but never seen one.
  10. Regarding NI, I think NIFRS have Fire Cadets. There was also some sort of "maritime cadet" (with a Merchant Marine spin ISTR) organisation in Bangor I believe. I'll see if I can get links.


    NIFRS Cadet Scheme
  11. OldSnowy

    OldSnowy LE Moderator Book Reviewer

    No-one has any issues or problems with the Boy's Brigade, Police Cadets, the Jewish Lad's and Girl's Brigade, St John Ambulance Cadets, Scouts, Guides, Woodcraft Folk, or any similar group. They are all fine and functioning youth organisations (although I've always been a bit wary of the last one!) and have nothing whatsoever to do with HM Forces - nor do they claim to do so.

    It's the others that cause some concern - and again, there's no plan to make them illegal, or control them, or do anything else. It's just that, in basic terms, there is a very limited pot of money, resources, and goodwill available, and we'd prefer it to go to those groups who we know well.

    Oddly enough, after a bit of research, it seems that the Air Cadets don't have a problem in this area, the Army Cadets have some small concerns, and that most of the independent groups are involved in the Maritime area. I'm tempted to think that this bears a very close correlation to the attitude to, and funding of, 'their' Cadets by the three Servces :)
  12. 101 Sea Scout Group's are Recognised/Sponsored by the Royal Navy. 100 of them are in the UK, the other being in Gibraltar. The scheme is lead by a regular RN officer. RN Recognised Sea Scouts have the same privileges as other MOD sponsored Cadets - access to MOD property, ability to order from stores etc. Each RN Sea Scout Group is issued a defaced Red Ensign and pennant to signify their link to the RN. They are inspected every 2 years by the RN.

    It was originally setup in 1919 as a reward for the Sea Scouts efforts in the WW1 (Sea Scouts we're the only non armed forces organisation to take part in the national victory parade).

    The Crabs to a similar thing with Air Scouts, but these are less in number.
  13. :D
    What self respecting sprog would go to an "Air Cadet" unit that didnt give best access to the big boys toys? :D
  14. Don't get what your saying OS.

    Are you saying the MoD don't know which Cadet units to support?