Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by crisp83, Jun 5, 2014.
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I assume Granny was from the 'Big House'? If so, then it had everything to do with politics.
If De Valera had been kidnapped then dispatched to remain face down in a bog for eternity, the circumstances that led to the formation of this thread would probably have not existed.
But yet all the other children were removed
The decision not to send more children to the home wasn't acted on either was it.
In our school we called it a Penny for the Little Black Babies. One of our teachers had done a stint in Biafra and we were dead keen on supporting the Missions. Friday morning was collection day although no beatings were administered for failure to produce the penny. It was probably a big deal for my mother to produce half a dozen pennies on the morning of payday. I sometimes embarrass my children and grandchildren by saying I want my feckin pennies back when I see a black kid.
Earth closets probably
They have a charm all of their own.
Sorry, not understood.
Many years ago I knew a woman born in the South
She was born to an unmarried Catholic mother in a mother and baby home.
Her mother was obliged to sign adoption paperwork and the church sent the child to childless adoptive parents over the border in Tyrone. Shortly after her arrival there the adoptive parents suddenly got pregnant (they had been advised by their doctor that it wasn't going to happen)
The father had a new born son and although the mother wanted her the father wasn't interested.
The father routinely beat and abused the mother, later the adopted daughter. As the boy reached teenage years he behaved much the same of his father. The local priest was fully aware. As was the mother and baby home that sent the female child to that household.
The most the priest ever did was to come around the house on a Friday night and drink whiskey with the father. Often to the point that the father was incapable of beating the wife and daughter. Eventually the mother died of long term injuries caused by the father. no action was taken.
The daughter fled to England eventually and didn't go back to Ulster until after her adoptive father had died.
The birth mother was given no choice about moving in to the mother and baby home. Before and after the birth she was obliged to work in the Magdalene Laundry, I believe for several years after she had the child. Not a long step away from slavery.
She made several attempts to see her daughter, sometimes if the father wasn't around the adoptive mother would allow her to see the young child occasionally.
Eventually the birth mother moved to Liverpool, married and raised a large family.
The catholic church in the south held all the records of the adoption and of the natural mother. Church policy made sure it was very difficult for the woman to find any details of her mother or adoption. Eventually a friendly priest in the south obtained the details and passed them on but I don't think that was normal practice. I was there when he did so. He was introduced by a friend who knew him very well for decades, The priest owed him a favour for something 20 years prior. It wasn't specified what for but the priest was very helpful. The implication was that the priest had visited a seminary and looked at the records that supposedly do not exist.
Ireland say that there are no records about the Magdalene prisons (for that's what they really were) but that is a lie. I talked to a priest that admitted the records exist and the catholic church keeps them a closely guarded secret. the records are sufficiently good that he identified a birth mother of one of the children 30 years after she was given to new parents.
I believe that most records are kept in seminaries out of the public eye. The catholic church in Ireland is completely aware of everything that occurred and always was.
The Irish State knew all about it, the catholic Church knew all about it. Nobody talked about it.
The last Magdalene Asylum (the Convent of the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity) closed in 1996. Just 21 years ago.
They owned landed and were minor gentry or at least middle class.
Granny was certainly middle class but was from Cornwall where her father was a C of E parson. She had no connection with Ireland apart from going there to dodge her creditors in England and later in Scotland.
Whatever, that hardly excuses murder (unless one is RC when murder of innocent females is clearly not a sin).
If he was tasked with doing it unsuccessfully, then shirley he succeeded?
If your Grandmother arrived in Ireland after 1914, she would have found herself in a very tense and dangerous political situation. By 1913 Ireland, in the midst of the Home Rule Crisis, was on the verge of civil war with two armed factions, the Irish Volunteers and the Ulster Volunteers, ready to fight for their particular vision for the future of the island of Ireland. Ironically, the outbreak of the Great War defused the threat as the majority joined the British Army to further their particular aim.
Your mother’s memoires refer to the period of time as " .. By now the Great War was raging and the Irish 'Troubles' as they were called had started.” Therefore I am assuming she was referring to the period from 1916 and prior to 1919 with the outbreak of the War of Independence. The Easter Rising is over; Asquith has ordered the executions of the leaders to stop; martial law is imposed along with internment without trial. In addition, the heavy casualties suffered by the Connaught Rangers in the outbreak of the war are particularly acute in a sparsely populated area such as Connemara, its traditional area for recruitment. These are compounded by the losses at Gallipoli in 1915 and then the Somme in 1916.
It would be fair to say that your Grandmother found herself in a place where she would have been viewed with hostility and resentment and threats to her life would have been possible. Moving to the North East corner of Ireland would have been a much safer option for her. As to how realistic that threat was, it reasonable to assume that “Paddy Phelan” was one of the 10% of Irish Volunteers who were also members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, who stayed behind in Ireland to realise their aim for autonomy by more robust methods. However, family stories are a valued form of oral history but like all historical sources, they must be evaluated for veracity. There is no record of a “Paddy Phelan” being executed for the murder of a British soldier (qv):
Maybe it was a more exciting tale to tell than running from the creditors or the helpful “milkwoman” had her own motives for your Grandmother’s hasty departure.
With regard to your final point:
“Whatever, that hardly excuses murder (unless one is RC when murder of innocent females is clearly not a sin).”
Firstly, murder i.e. the unlawful and premeditated killing of another human being is unacceptable regardless of the excuse of religion to justify it. Those found guilty of it by means of a just trial must be punished for it.
Secondly, it has been pointed out in this thread and others that the Roman Catholic church in Ireland is an ‘arriviste’ in terms of Irish nationalist politics.
Finally, a comment such as “unless one is RC when murder of innocent females is clearly not a sin” is a crass generalisation and reminiscent of the later distorted thinking that inhibited the search for solutions when the “Troubles” began in the part of Ireland that your Grandmother sought sanctuary in.
As far as I'm aware all others were removed and no one else was sent there by the HSE.
I did hear that at least 1 person was sent there by private family arrangement afterwards, once the HSE heard about it they were told to stop.
I would question why if they were told to stop they kept using them, but I suppose they trusted them.
It was illegal for so called soft information to be given (not sure if it still is). I personally have mixed views on soft info, the protection of children should be priority in short and long term but you risk a trial being thrown out and the potential for false allegations.
Incidentally, I think it was Barnardos who were first contacted by Graces family. The CEO (a very well known man on Irish TV, Fergus Finley) was saying on the radio, that "unspeakable" things were done to the victims and some have permanent physical untreatable conditions as a result.
Grace is a mute by the way.
It is with surprise and disgust that I have digested this thread - being a father of two myself I cannot imagine how a person could hurt a child under any circumstances. It strikes me that this type of story is just the tip of the iceberg, and that any serious and adequately funded inquiry could unearth evidence of multiple further atrocities across the entire British Isles. It is frightening how recently many of the inhumanities described here occurred, and is testament to the fact that unless people speak out, these things are allowed to perpetuate almost in plain sight. I know things have moved on a great deal, but it is a reminder that the greatest scrutiny must be continually levelled at all institutions and facilities where the vulnerable in society are supposedly helped. I stand with my eyes opened.
Dolphin Square? What's the latest there, or have the culpable closed ranks?
I remember this clip
of Stephen Fry being interviewed by Gay Byrne and Byrne looking like he had shat himself. I hope I live long enough to see the catholic church in Ireland go through the same experience.
Do the modernists not realise that as long as they keep the lid on this they share the culpability with their predecessors. Guilty as **** in the past, guilty as **** today, guilty as **** in the future.
Separate names with a comma.