Uniting the various organisations to fight for us?

Discussion in 'Shooting, Hunting and Fishing' started by ugly, Apr 26, 2012.

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  1. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    This Blog,high life ......@ a low ebb: You Might as Well Try to Plait Fog is a well written summary of what the general impression given on this forum of the new boss of the CA and asks if it is time for a uniting body to take over which is what the CA grew frrom the BFSS.
    I blogged it and my comments regarding the NRA and its attitude over the years to other shooters is the main reason why I dont trust them and would rather Bisley was turned into a housing estate for chavs before I gave them a penny of my money;
    "United we stand?
    This Blog is well written (ok grammar isnt everything now my Nana is passed on I can say that!) and points out the problems in the shooting community as our PR people would like us to be known but the Gun Lobby as those 4 New Labour Acolytes of the GCN would have us called.
    I am reasonably relaxed about the whole debate but I do have deep seated mistrust of at least one of the paper punching mobs, the NRA. This is the bunch of overpaid self promoted clowns who responded to the Last Labour Home Office Consultation stating that all shooting should be regulated and shooters trained with themselves being the organisation responsible for this and receiving public money to ensure that they do.
    I'm not above empire building myself, after all they can bring good things but having endured NRA training courses I cant believe they have the experience nor the will to teach properly field sport shooting of live quarry. After all we saw how shabbily they behaved to the other paper punchers in 88 and 97 when they preferred to stay quiet rather than represent those who paid them, makes you wonder if an organisation that allows its stock of historic weapons donated from members to be stolen and sold by its own staff, its section 7 ammunition held for members to be pilfered and not even offer an apology can be trusted to do anything more than charge like a wounded rhino?
    If shooting falls in this country it wont be for the want of dedicated individuals but because of idiots like the NRA who have done more to damage shooting than any utter with a gun or a writer for the guardian (I should have said crayoner as a 2 year old could produce better less vitriolic bile masquerading as journalism). I suppose that's it Rant over but one thing I will leave you with is that should the worst happen and shooting does cease to exist away from inner city crime and pest control (the same thing surely) then I for one wont waste my time mourning over the remains of Bisley camp when it gets bulldozed for Housing!"
    Now if there was a seperate organisation it would have to start from scratch but the only way you would ever get the various factionns to talk and have a single body would be by legislating. The NRA failed in its aim to take over shooting and I feel that very few of the other bodies trust it sufficiently to let it represent them as a public face let alone have decisions over funding a disciplines etc!
    How you would get the horse and hound mob to sit at the same table as the crusty colonels in TR without loading it with quail eggs I have no idea!
    Suggestions please?
  2. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    Oh I should have added that whilst the NRA seems to be excellent at disunity it couldnt make shit stick to an army blanket!
    • Like Like x 1
  3. That's about it.

    I haven't a clue how one could be made from the many, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction. Agree that something with a new start, title etc. would be the best solution, a fresh start and might just be the answer. It's how to get everyone pulling in the right direction though especially when you see some of the dust-gathering old fookers in the NRA?

    Wasn't it always about what tie & blazer you wore anyway?
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Okay, here's my 10p worth:

    BFSS/CA is full of crusty old gits who think everything revolves around wearing pinks and riding to horse, they will happily sell shooting down the river (and did) to get back fox hunting.

    NRA, full of crusty old gits who think everything revolves around punching holes in paper and being in the right Regt.

    BASC, generally good but have the nack of pissing the police licensing depts off as they think (and probably could) do a better job. pretty much owe their existence to Colin Greenwood (all hail) as he remonstrated them after '88.

    NSRA, as NRA

    HBSA, you lot load from the wrong end and too small.

    MLAGB, no you lot load from the wrong end and are too small

    BSSC/SST supposedly in overall control (don't make me laugh) of shooting sports. Well intentioned but no 'power'

    CPSA, just about recognise sporting layouts as skeet is the master!

    SRA, generally bunch of people who've had certificates revoked and the 'unclean' end of the shooting world.

    UKPSA, follow IPCC doctrine and too concerned about looking 'ally' rather than trying to save the sport(s)

    Gamekeepers assoc. Generally good but too small. Came about as they didn't like what BASC were doing.

    -add others as you think, but those are the main ones IMO.

    Getting them to agree to anything is nigh on impossible and they will all sell one another off to save their sport. The only way to have any political lobbying power is to unite and there are far too many people with too many self interests to do that. It should all come under the standing of one organisation. Whether that is BSSC under David P or BASC under John S, one or the other.

    Shooting sports and country sports have too much in common to bicker amongst themselves. However, should they be united? I wouldn't walk with the CA on fox hunting as they did bugger all to save my pistols. Most shooters would wonder why we should have anything to do with CA as they think it's worlds apart. And yet, we're not.

    One organisation, to be the GCN called 'gun lobby' that has 'power' over other shooting organisations. It needs to have strong leadership, with proven political clout and be able to lobby MP's, particularly those in marginal seats which can say I have 'x' shooters who will vote for or against you on firearms and country sports matters.

    The same gun lobby to promote the 'united we stand' argument. To have 'power' over the other organisations and bring them into line. The NRA in the USA is a good example of this. I'm not talking about a new world order or 'ein volk, ein reich, ein fuhrer' just the ability to stop the bickering and in fighting and to be the presentable face of shooting and country sports. Unfortunately, this will not happen because of the self interests of the other organisations.

    Give me the job and I know where the dead wood can be removed, who to lobby and how to get across the presentable face of shooting and country sports :) I'll have two jags as well :) All hail Scalieback!
    • Like Like x 4
  5. We couldn't even get the NRA, NSRA and CPSA merger to work so I don't see any chance of a united voice.

    I am a member of several of the organisations that have been critiqued and so here is my take on them.

    The NRA are currently going through (another) reorg and so we shall see. (BTW I don't recognise the image of tht NRA Member above, although it may be because I was in a "good" regiment at one time.)

    I have found BASC very helpful in the past and, in my opinion, they lead the pack in protecting our sport. (If Bill Harriman didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him.)

    Although I shoot small bore, other than run the postal leagues, I have no idea what the NSRA does.

    As to HBSA being too small, we did a better job post-Dunblane than the pure target shooters, in that I still have pistols on-shore and the Olympic squad do not.

    On the subject of pistols it has been mentioned on this forum that the ONLY thing that was banned post-Dunblane was Target Shooting. All other pistol activity is either still allowed or is still illegal. We need to lead with that and make it clear that it is only the sporting use of pistols that has been affected by this thoroughly bad "Dangerous Dogs Act" style legislation.

    On the subject of Dunblane I was in Press & PR at the time but my advice was not even listened to, let alone given the dignity of being rejected. Mike Yardley may be a journalist (and a thoroughly nice chap) but he is not PR person and his fronting the shooting sports was a big mistake and the tack taken just plain wrong.
  6. Wholly agree, albeit I assume you mean 'couldn't

    More dinosaur imo. They're still massively in debt and haven't recovered from the 'theft.' Bisley still has that colonial feel which I like but doesn't say 'we are the cente of shooting excellence.'

    Bill is good, but so are most of the others. Mike is probably the best imo, simply because he has shot for eons, plus he was plod. Seen both sides as it were.

    Geoff does quite a good job, but even though they're very large, they can't rally huge support imx.

    Agreed, albeit they had that niche and David did some very good presenatations. You can blame the UKPSA for the loss of pistols for target shooting. Come along to Bisley and see 'xx' shoot a dozen targets in half a nano second with his race gun rather than get some old clunker out.

    Agreed, you have my support FWiW

    I know Mike quite well and agree with you. Someone like David would have been better, but he doesn't seek the limelight and whilst he gives a good presentation he isn't good at dealing with heckling from GCN et al.

    They should have gone on the offensive showing what a safe responsible sport it was. However, the decision by Pat etc was to keep a low profile out of respect. It can't be easy to argue against a parent or that idiot at the Neu Arbeit conference, but it needed to be done by a responsible, upstanding and presentable person. Still, water under the bridge and time to move on.
  7. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    Can anything be done to save what we have apart from blindly voting CMD in each 5 years (not forgetting that the Tories have been the architects of all the bad firearms legislation since 1922 and possibly even before? Yes it was mostly stable door closing but it wasnt even done properly, the sports were regulated and the police failed to do their job properly twice so everyone else suffers!
    What next, after being a member of David Penns club for over 20 years I would follow him anywhere but he cant have that long left!
  8. If you can get all of the organisations to 'blindly' support one person who is their spokesman on shooting and rural matters, there is a chance. Whilst the tories have been the architect of the '88 and '97 changes, they based this on media pressure. That and the vain hope of keeping a tory in Scotland. He should have realised he was onto a loser and taken the bullet (pun intended).

    Having seen what Neu Arbeit did at their conference, what changes came out afterwards and in subsequent changes, they are imo vehemently anti-gun in general. There are some supporters, but in comparison to the tories nowhere near as bad. Don't get me started on the Limp Damps .......

    It's great to blame the Police, but they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Ryan wasn't really on their radar, albeit all the 'nutter' stories come out afterwards as usual. Hamilton should have been pulled up but even Cullen said it wasn't certain his subsequent appeal would have failed. As for Bird, nobody knew apart from his brother who could possibly be criticised for not telling the old bill, but as he's dead.... Plod are in an unenviable position imo.

    David is due to retire, Colin (gets too angry anyway) is also, Bill gets too angry and snobby (even though I like him), Mike Y is a blessed fool and still has the 'upper class' about him (for being an ex Rupert). Even Pat rarely put across a good reasoned argument imo. None of the other top echelons have anyone who has struck me as being a good mouthpiece for the sport

    As Beerhunter said, you can't even get NRA, NSRA and CPSA to become one, so herding all of the other cats would be nigh on impossible. Still, I do hope it gets sorted one way or another and before the next election so that the political clout of shooting organisations can be brought to bear.

    Lastly, and not least, shooters imx are the worst. They whinge at paying club fees, whinge about someone possibly cheating, whinge about the cost of ammo and whinge about almost everything else. However, getting them off their butts (pun intended) is almost impossible. They won't even volunteer to RO, let alone stick their signature on something that doesn't affect them eg banning fox hunting.
  9. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    Well I dont ride and I attended the Hyde Park rally. The plod shouldnt have issued either ryan or hamilton certs and club secs were on record stating neither were fit or suitable unless thats SAGBNI spin?
  10. That's SAGBNI spin. Police were not aware of concerns about Ryan and Hamilton from the club secretaries. Read the Cullen report.

    The clubs afterwards said Ryan was 'strange' but never told plod. WRT Hamilton, as Cullen said even if he had been revoked he may have still won his appeal.

    SAGBNI still think there's a massive cover up on both when in fact if both persons clubs and the shooters who thought they were strange had told plod...... SAGBNI also believe in aliens, the loch ness monster and fairies. Get over it and move on.

    The problem is, how many 'odd' people have you seen shooting and not reported to plod? Who is the 'walter mitty' of your gun club(s)? Who is the 'wanna be Rambo' you've taken deer stalking? Out of all of those, what gives plod reason to think they are 'unfit to be entrusted' or are a 'danger to public safety?' Trust me and without blowing persec, (albeit you probably do) I know.
  11. Ryan in the Cullen Report, are you sure? There wasn't an enquiry like Cullen into Ryan (more's the pity) because the events happened England and so different laws pertain.

    The problem with Ryan was that no proper enquires were made by Thames Valley. If they were, it would have showed that he was only Probationary Member of his Club. In spite of that, out of ignorance, TV allowed him to buy some nasty kit - for a probationer.
  12. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    So you have read the report re Hungerford that is allegedly too secret for mere mortals?
  13. Yep. it's about twenty years ago I read it though. Not that good or 'sexy' imo. SAGBNI stuff about black helicopters and SAS marksmen is b@lls.
  14. I read the Cullen report, shame the Govt. took the decision not to.
  15. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    Its a pity then it wasnt released!