Union trying to ban the military, help please

#1
Gents, Im a university graduate who still has friends at a particular union. These people are involved in the union politics and a bunch of left wingers there are trying to put a ban the military proposal forward to the union council. Knowing I'm on my way to sanbags they've forwarded me the proposal and asking for help arguing against it.

I'm at work so dont have that much time to go into detail for them so I was wondering if anyone has any good links to information on this subject, so I can give them something to read while im at work.

The union will remain annonymous for the moment before the outrage bus gets going. Don't worry though, once more is know I will name and unleash arrse on the lefty ****'s

Proposal.......



At some point, please can we chat this through as there's been a 50 person petition to council about a policy introduction and I don't know enough fact to argue against it on £$$%%^.

It says 'This Union opposes the disastrous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, It is unacceptable for military recruiters, whose purpose is to recruit young people to fight and die in these unjustifiable wars, to target us in our educational establishments. Military propaganda obscures the reality of war and military life.

This Union resolves:

1. To ban the military from Union premises, and from all union-run events.

2. To do everything possible to support the campaign against military recruitment on our campuses.

3. To take effective action to enforce our policy against arms companies.

I'd guess you'd be fuming by about now... but need a bit of help to actually come up with a decent argument against it :)


Thanks
 
#4
Well, that is their opinion and everyone is entitled to their own train of thought. They, like every other citizen of this great country, have the RIGHT and the FREEDOM to think what they want and express it publicly, however it may go against that which others think. I would maintain my dignity and just politely remind them that as they freely exercise this right, maybe they would spare a thought for all of the past generations (including some of their grandparents, no doubt) who fought and died in equally unjustifiable wars over the years in order to secure the very freedom and rights that allow them to protest against the current wars across the globe.

"Secure the high ground" is a good military tactic and also works well in arguments with the moral high ground :)
 
#5
gasmark9 said:
Well, that is their opinion and everyone is entitled to their own train of thought. They, like every other citizen of this great country, have the RIGHT and the FREEDOM to think what they want and express it publicly, however it may go against that which others think. I would maintain my dignity and just politely remind them that as they freely exercise this right, maybe they would spare a thought for all of the past generations (including some of their grandparents, no doubt) who fought and died in equally unjustifiable wars over the years in order to secure the very freedom and rights that allow them to protest against the current wars across the globe.

"Secure the high ground" is a good military tactic and also works well in arguments with the moral high ground :)
And then scuttle their missus/mother/sister whilst their away chaining themself to nuclear power plants?
 

cpunk

LE
Moderator
#6
It is never really a question of 'arguing' against proposals like this; none of the proponents of a ban will be swayed by argument and your friends will be wasting their time trying. What your friends actually need to do is organise sufficiently large numbers of right thinking individuals to go along to the meeting and vote the proposals down. It's a well trodden path.
 
#7
They only have rights and freedom " because rough men stand ready to do violencs on their behalf" george Orwell the commy wonks
 
#8
Note the proposal cites union premises - this does not apply to the whole campus but only to the areas which they occupy ie their dingy office. I suspect the military has no interest to attend union run events in anycase so its no hardship.
 
#9
The union council is made up of councillors who will consider the arguments for and against the proposal before making a decision, so it will be a case of arguing against this proposal. The union in question does matter. Its big and involved in a large part of the studnetns live at our university
 
#10
yater_spoon said:
Note the proposal cites union premises - this does not apply to the whole campus but only to the areas which they occupy ie their dingy office. I suspect the military has no interest to attend union run events in anycase so its no hardship.
But 'union premises' often includes the bars, there is at least the potential for hardship (or lack-of-wet-ship).
 
#11
Argue that had the Military not been there in 2 previous World Wars then this 'union' would not exist and those members would not be demonstrating the freedoms of speech and choice.

Also point out all the good work carried out by the military, all the charity work, the help in disasters around the world etc and the aid the Military bring when the Search and Rescue Helicopters and Mountain Rescue Teams are called on to help those in danger
 
#12
yater_spoon said:
Note the proposal cites union premises - this does not apply to the whole campus but only to the areas which they occupy ie their dingy office. I suspect the military has no interest to attend union run events in anycase so its no hardship.
Normally the only issue here is OTC attendence at "Freshers Fair" at the start of the Uni year, which tends to be on "Union" property, usaully solvable by using a bit of non-union propeerty in the vicinity - The local OTC set up in the corridor leading to Freshers - every Student attending has to pass the stand twice, on the way in and on the way out.

The real problem would be if the University proper was moved to ban the military - and thats not usual. Universities tend to see things in terms of factors like employment opportunities for graduates, current research income - and the military/defence industry tick those boxes nicely.

As suggested above an idea which has worked elsewhere is to find a suitable number of like-minded persons to attend and vote down any such proposals. In my student days the caving club was very non-political, but well organised and susceptible to promises of an improved equipment budget when asked to support appropriate proposals. :D Even more fun is to join the offending organisation en-masse and engineeer a coup, deposing the leadership. Caution tho - all too easy to shoot our image in the foot by tying up with extremists from the other political flank - avoid an excess of tweed and/or swastikas.
 
#13
Just for reference, unless something has changed quite drastically the government is going to put legislation before Parliament in the next session making it illegal to discriminate against the military (this comes out of the armed forces engagement review Quentin Davies did earlier in the year).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/may/20/military.discriminationatwork

So whatever they do will ultimately be law-breaking if they are successful in enacting a ban and continue its implementation after the legislation has passed into law (which it will).

They might then try and fight a court case, but that would be a bad idea; there would be zero public sympathy and student unions don't have infinite levels of funding.
 
#14
Read this to them:

The Soldier
It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
By Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC


Then give them a good shoeing!!
 
#15
They're a bit late on the bandwagon aren't they, thought this was all going on in other unis a good few months ago now?

TBH it's liable to be mainly aimed at the OTC as others have said. I can't see how regulars or territorials could get caught up in it. I'm a STAB at uni at the mo, whilst any move to ban the military would make me think 'what the fcuk?', in practical terms, how is it going to affect you?

They going to turf you out of halls if they find a set of 95s in your wardrobe, or search everyone who goes into the Union for a Mod90? No. So although it is a sad indication of some people's views towards the armed forces, if a bunch of lefty tossers want to get 'outraged' and play at politics with their frankly insignificant trainset, it hardly amounts to much real impact on the rest of us.

Now their state of mind and the contempt in which some elements of the public hold those who serve for all of us, thats another rant... But as others have said, they are entitled to this freedom of speech. All part of the 'rich tapestry' I suppose :roll:
 
#16
I think the ban on the union would have more of an impact than you think. There is also the principal issue. I was very proud to be heavily involved in my union during my time at University, I would hate for it's name to be sullied by this kind of horse crap. It's also not a case of getting numbers down to the meeting. The only ones who will vote on this is pre-elected councilors representing academic departments and minorities. thanks for the heads up on the law. Im likely to speak at the meeting about this. I will post up my points when I get chance
 
#17
'if a bunch of lefty tossers want to get 'outraged' and play at politics'

Unfortunately, the lefty tossers end up in non-jobs like researcher for the Liarbour party or local government or unions then get shoe-horned into safe seats and end up running us. Vis the current crop who current misrun us, most of whom are former student activists and have never had a proper job.
 
#18
I absolutely agree on the principle of it being a massive affront to those who serve, or have served. Unfortunately I fear the sort of people who propose and back this sort of thing are the type who are not going to be swayed by rational argument or common sense...

Hope this works out for you and you can stop the Union adopting such a stance. Have you thought of contacting your local Military Education Committee? They may be of some help.
 
#19
In defence of Unions, they're not all like this. We've had a whole day event raising money for the RBL, and I've seen uniformed chaps in the Union bar.

I think the madness only takes hold at larger institutions.
 
#20
Recent Updates to the National Recognition Study:

Mod Formal Approval

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...ernmentRespondsToNationalRecognitionStudy.htm

Parliament Written Statement:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldhansrd/text/81029-wms0001.htm

First national Armed Forces Days will be held on June 27, 2009

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...t-Armed-Forces-Day-to-be-held-on-June-27.html

Note that although the majority of recommendations of the report have been accepted and are going to be implemented, ministers have decided NOT to make discrimination against the armed forces a criminal offence.

None the less all the above should help to build a strong argument to describe how such discriminatory policies presented to Unions are increasingly becoming out of touch with all facets of today's society, and will lead towards alienation of sections of their student body. Which I would presume they we be dead set against if they have even the most basic of student body charters and let alone simple decency.
 

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