Undocumented illegal entries and asylum seekers are a threat to national security?

[AlienFTM]

Its nothing to do with Brexit, ECJ and ECHR. Its all the fault of this baby.

Convention relating to the Status of Refugees.

Until we either withdraw from the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees, or countries in the West get together to update the convention nothing will happen. This seems very unlikely. The convention was written with the situation in Eastern Europe after WW2 wiith many people fleeing from the NKVD into West Germany and other places in only the clothes they stould up in. At the time it was written this was actually happening with many North Korean refugees cramming into Allied ships with UN forces to escape the Chinese and NK forces.

It didn't envisage large numbers of people coming from the M.E. Africa and Asia having paid large sums of money to people smuggling gangs, passing though many safe counties with the conivance of NGO's with many delibrately destroying any documentation that they have. Many of these people come from safe countries and are economic immigrants who have no valid asylum claim. They may come from very poor countries and want a better life but there is no obligation on the west to give them this. Indeed they welfare system would soon be overwhelmed if there were open borders.

Until there is a concerted effort to put the people smuggling gangs out of buisness, rein in the NGO's and put economic pressure on the countries these people come ffrom to take them back, Europe wide, then this problem will just trundle on like it has for the last twenty years and more with the far right getting stronger and stronger.

Priti and Bojo are not wrong when they say that 'our asylum system is broken', but this statement doesn't just apply to the UK. It needs to be reset so that those in genuine need of asylum (think Yazidi women, Christians in the Middle East and Pakistan etc) don't get overlooked or left out due to the system being overwhelmed and being held in public disapproval which seems to be happening now.

refugee​

/rɛfjʊˈdʒiː/

noun

a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster

These people are coming from France. Which of the above applies?

Edit. I can't now remember where I read that under the Convention, refugees are to be granted asylum in the first safe country they reach.

 

[lokiuk]

refugee​

/rɛfjʊˈdʒiː/

noun

a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster

These people are coming from France. Which of the above applies?

It's only 75 years since WWII ended in Europe, they're that close to Hans flammenwerfer they're in fear of their lives

 

[par avion]

It's only 75 years since WWII ended in Europe, they're that close to Hans flammenwerfer they're in fear of their lives

I don't think it was Hans flammenwerfer that they were afraid of. More the cold steel of Vasily of the NKVD's 7.62 x 38mmR Nagant M1895 revolver to the nape of the neck.

 

[PapaGolf]

I don't like the idea of people whom we know nothing about coming here and being allowed to stay, they can easily make up any cock and bull story and get free legal aid.

I'm guessing it's a no-nonsense argument, once brexit has happened and we aren'y technically bound by any particulars like the ECJ and ECHR can we speed up the process of deporting illegal asylum seekers and also a process of fingerprinting them so once they have been deported if they try and enrol BRP again they can be flagged?

If you ask me the masses of people we know about whom aren't investigated via the appropriate visa screening process vs people whom have been checked albeit whatever the HO does to satisfy they are safe to let in is more of a logical thought process?

UK Supreme Court to decide whether Shamima Begum can return

Begum was 15 and one of three east London schoolgirls who travelled to Syria in 2015, to live under ISIL’s rule.

www.aljazeera.com

Undocumented and illegal entrants are a threat to our national security? Potentially coming here and setting up bomb making factories and meth labs for fundraising terrorism?
One word - Grenfell
‘Nuff said

 

[vinniethemanxcat]

When a far right putsch finally comes, it will be gratifying to know that all the Old Etonians who are first against the wall, finally realise they should have listened to the concerns and misgivings of ordinary decent citizens and done something far sooner........

 

[Bacongrills]

The number of "refugees" in the world that want to move to Europe is now a totally unviable number since modern methods of travel have become available, the whole concept should be ended as no number is ever going to be enough or make any difference without destroying European civilisation.

 

[par avion]

The number of "refugees" in the world that want to move to Europe is now a totally unviable number since modern methods of travel have become available, the whole concept should be ended as no number is ever going to be enough or make any difference without destroying European civilisation.

True enough BG. But no mainstream politician is ever going to even say that, let alone have the guts to do anything about it. Far better to kick the can down the road.

 

[vinniethemanxcat]

The only decent thing the civilised world, what's left of it, can do. is to stop them breeding like cockroaches.......

Next is to stop the cycle of evil bastards taking over countries and looting them

 

[Filthy_contract]

Sadly not; it was rather more serious than that.

I had a similar chat with a former FCDO colleague who was extremely concerned about some of the people that are landing and the near absolute inability of doing any sort of background checks on them

 

[rampant]

refugee​

/rɛfjʊˈdʒiː/

noun

a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster

These people are coming from France. Which of the above applies?

Nowhere is it written that a refugee has to claim asylum in the first safe country they reach, other than in the fevered mines of certain people. A refugee has the right to claim asylum in any country that they believe is safest for them.

Do refugees have to stay in the first safe country they reach? - Full Fact

Refugees are not required to seek asylum in the first safe country they reach. But under EU law they can sometimes be returned to the first safe EU country they reached.

fullfact.org

However, under the EU Dublin Regulation, we could send them back to another EU Country under certain circumstances, we are still bound by that until the end of the transition period. After Full Brexit in January we loose that lever, being no longer part of Schengen or Dublin III, nor have we yet established agreements or treaties with the EU/Individual member States ((other than the limited Le Touquet Treaty with France) and there may be some considerable time until we can. A No Deal Brexit guarantees that we we lose any mechanisms to return asylum, seekers or immigrants to the Continent.

The Dublin Regulation: an overview UK in a Changing Europe

Following recent debates on the Channel crossing, Steven Peers explores the Dublin regulation and how it links to Brexit.

ukandeu.ac.uk

So why do they come here? Well it's not our generosity that's for sure. We actually pay some of the lowest benefits in Europe, both to our down-and-outs and refugees. They'd get far more money on the Continent than they would staying here

Does the UK have lower unemployment than the Eurozone? - Full Fact

The UK unemployment rate was 4.3% earlier this year, compared to 9% average across the Eurozone.

fullfact.org

Asylum benefits in the EU: How member states compare | DW | 19.06.2018

The level of financial aid EU members provide to asylum-seekers can vary significantly from country to country. Germany, for instance, grants monthly allowances of up to €354. DW examines asylum benefits across the bloc.

www.dw.com

On top of that we also have the most restrictive "right to work" rules in Europe, longer qualifications action period, more restricted schedule of jobs available.

Asylum seekers: the permission to work policy - House of Commons Library

The Government is reviewing its policy on restricting asylum seekers' rights to work. The current position is that people seeking asylum can only apply for permission to work if they have been waiting for an initial decision on their asylum claim for over 12 months. Those who are given...

commonslibrary.parliament.uk

These are being challenged in court, because generally they are not applied at all, and Asylum Seekers are denied work full stop, until such time their claim has been processed.

Asylum seeker set to challenge "illusory" right to work rules - Free Movement

The High Court has granted permission for a judicial review challenge to the rules on when asylum seekers are allowed to work in the UK.

www.freemovement.org.uk

So why do they come, well, mostly as we are seen as a politically stable, safe country, that treats its minorities fairly well in the scheme of things, and doesn't go in for religious or political persecution. There are also the economic opportunities of setting up a business here if they are successful (UK one of the easier places to start your own business), not only that we have (stand fast for next year though) a pretty buoyant job market with high employment, and good opportunities for those who succeed, and access to a good education system. They also may have family living here.

As for our return jihadi bride in the OP, she was born in the UK, and has British Citizenship. However the government has claimed she has Bangladeshi Citizenship, or at least the automatic right to which would make it easier for us to strip her of her Citizenship.

Bangladesh however are saying " Get bent, no she hasn't. Not our problem matey."

And as we can't legally rendered anybody Stateless we find ourselves in this long running legal saga of Yes/No/ Appeal.

It's not an easy one to solve.

 

[History_Man]

If I as a British subject and under the present state of affairs, say I skipped across the channel from France where I was holidaying, and landed in Dover in a dingy. Would I be arrested.

Potentially yes, because you have deliberately sought to circumvent border controls.

 

[MostlyBollocks]

I have always been proud of the stance of the UK to say that if you are being persecuted then we will welcome you and care for you. However, for far too long now, people who are simply looking for a better life have claimed they are refugees, burned their passports and landed in the UK, throwing themselves onto our economy. They are not refugees, any more than my Canadian cousin is, or his Russian wife. They followed the rules, got their visas, came here and worked in the (well paid and useful to the country) jobs they had waiting for them.

If people have something to contribute and are useful to the economy, then they can come here through the legitimate system. If they have nothing to offer and are useless to the economy, then they use the refugee scam.

The main problem I can see is the interminable appeal system which takes years (thank you Tony, you had to keep Cherie in a job somehow, didn't you?) by the end of which, the migrant simply says "but I have a life here now" (and probably a wife/kid/cat) and bingo, it's time to pick your council house.

Reduce appeal times to three months and keep them locked up, fed and watered at public expense by all means, until the process is complete. The genuine ones will be grateful for the sanctuary - the scammers will be kicking off like they are in Penally.

 

[PapaGolf]

There is nowhere to keep them locked up. Which is why they get private taxi rides to B+Bs and Hotels. From there, they all feck off into their respective networks

 

[AlienFTM]

There is nowhere to keep them locked up. Which is why they get private taxi rides to B+Bs and Hotels. From there, they all feck off into their respective networks

There's a fleet of Cruise ships at anchor off the Dorset coat.

 

[rampant]

I have always been proud of the stance of the UK to say that if you are being persecuted then we will welcome you and care for you. However, for far too long now, people who are simply looking for a better life have claimed they are refugees, burned their passports and landed in the UK, throwing themselves onto our economy. They are not refugees, any more than my Canadian cousin is, or his Russian wife. They followed the rules, got their visas, came here and worked in the (well paid and useful to the country) jobs they had waiting for them.

If people have something to contribute and are useful to the economy, then they can come here through the legitimate system. If they have nothing to offer and are useless to the economy, then they use the refugee scam.

The main problem I can see is the interminable appeal system which takes years (thank you Tony, you had to keep Cherie in a job somehow, didn't you?) by the end of which, the migrant simply says "but I have a life here now" (and probably a wife/kid/cat) and bingo, it's time to pick your council house.

Reduce appeal times to three months and keep them locked up, fed and watered at public expense by all means, until the process is complete. The genuine ones will be grateful for the sanctuary - the scammers will be kicking off like they are in Penally.

You may have a point there, but here is the next problem, the Government have completely gutted the legal services and the judicial system is chronically short of cash, Court cases keep getting abandoned because Courts are falling to pieces, there aren't enough lawyers or CS to process these claims. This applies to the criminal system too BTW. Criminal cases are taking years to come to court, years. Atm you are lucky if a Rape case can reach the courts within 2yrs of the perp being id'd and charged.

This is a result of Government policy, austerity, and a desire to appease certain sectors of the tabloid press. The desire to punish so called fat lawyers and barristers (very few are in the criminal system, barrister in the Civil Courts are a bit more fortunate).

The contradiction of desires, demanding legal aid and other judiciary monies be slashed, whilst going to town on the undesirable elements of our society is a circle that cannot be squared. If you want a quick efficient Justice System, I'm afraid you have to fund it.

Check out the writings of The Secret Barrister and David Allen Greene (formerly Jack of Kent) on this, its rather eye opening.

 

[Graculus]

Mass immigration is a treat to society as a whole.

Straight into the arrse book of mong typos.

 

[miner69er]

I know this is going to bring incoming but wtf its ARRSE and I should be able to take a 'bit of joshing'. The fact is - it aint gonna stop and no matter what you try to do, fugees will keep hitting this shore.
The situation what we are seeing is feck all to what is coming. When everything north of nigeria is gonnna be a desert and when the water wars start then Europe is going to be the only place they will come to. The only other way is to kill them - yes kill them as they come to the border. You have to ask why the Russians dont have the issue. Quite simple you need a strong leader and a population who wont put up with it, but in future even they will be under pressure (well there southern hinterlands will).
So we have to start to develop a mindset - you are British - first and foremost. Do whatever you like in your own house but when outside - your a Brit.
So load up your 81's and 155's - and lets have it!

 

[Teeblerone]

There's merit in creating or expanding overseas reception centres near the borders of Europe (there were some in North Africa? Ethiopia?) - if nothing else, it's a shorter journey, less involvement of smugglers & traffickers.
Difficult to maintain, same problems of identity; though it'd be easier to keep ID documents if you're genuine, how do you check if someone's a "wrong 'un" without contacting their home country? And that's the problem - people hide their identity for many reasons, just like on a traffic stop. Fraud, terrorism, but also 'trivial' stuff like no insurance, banned, can't be arsed to take a test so get a counterfeit licence etc.

It would be awfully traumatic for a genuine refugee to be imprisoned and in 1951, we didn't a) have such facilities spare and b) didn't have so many 'non-genuine' refugees (?). It was easy to send people into the community, they were motivated to stay engaged. Doubt that any new build secure centres would be the most pleasant, but perhaps that's a price that has to be accepted.

Additionally, there wouldn't have been a massive culture clash. It's a bit of a red herring, but understandable that people mistrust Islam - it's strange to us in the UK and at the forefront of news, attacks. I had relatives that fought in Palestine who felt the same way about proto-Israelis. The amount of bad apples in any religious barrel is (most probably!) very small.
You don't hear about the religion of e.g Albanian drug & smuggling gangs. Then again, they're doing it for money rather than anything else. They cause massive damage, kill a few people, allow people to die being smuggled...but they'd rather get on with being criminals than changing anything.

Edit: I don't trust Russian or Chinese 'imports' either!

 

[MostlyBollocks]

You may have a point there, but here is the next problem, the Government have completely gutted the legal services and the judicial system is chronically short of cash, Court cases keep getting abandoned because Courts are falling to pieces, there aren't enough lawyers or CS to process these claims. This applies to the criminal system too BTW. Criminal cases are taking years to come to court, years. Atm you are lucky if a Rape case can reach the courts within 2yrs of the perp being id'd and charged.

This is a result of Government policy, austerity, and a desire to appease certain sectors of the tabloid press. The desire to punish so called fat lawyers and barristers (very few are in the criminal system, barrister in the Civil Courts are a bit more fortunate).

The contradiction of desires, demanding legal aid and other judiciary monies be slashed, whilst going to town on the undesirable elements of our society is a circle that cannot be squared. If you want a quick efficient Justice System, I'm afraid you have to fund it.

Check out the writings of The Secret Barrister and David Allen Greene (formerly Jack of Kent) on this, its rather eye opening.

Perhaps, but the appeals system is played by the lawyers - they could, if it was advantageous to them, have the appeal against a refusal done very quickly - the 'reasons' for appeal are few and all you need is a few templates at the ready and off you go. However, it's advantageous to the 'client' to wait until the absolute deadline before submitting the appeal. And you get more than one go. And the true kicker is the fact that if you have new evidence to put before the court, you can just keep on doing it over and over - a good HR lawyer just drip feeds evidence almost paragraph by paragraph rather than submitting it all at the first go - thereby ensuring that the process is dragged out as much as possible. By the time the process is complete, and the actual processing time, for want of a better phrase, is quite short - a matter of weeks - then the client has built a life here and is protected by the British human rights legislation. All covered by legal aid - the lawyers may not be making top dollar compared to a good criminal brief, but it's constant work and with large numbers of clients on the books at the same time, it's not bad. Cherie out-earned her husband by a factor of 'bloody hell, how much?'

I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect it's very few - how many other EU nations decided to take the EU Convention on Human Rights and make domestic legislation enshrining it - rather than simply signing up to the accord? Having a barrister in No 10 who had a deep interest in Human Rights legisation probably had nothing whatsoever to do with it...

As for not enough CS, I'm CS and trust me - with the political will, they'll be there. Recruitment in my Dept is rampant at the moment, to the point that we can't get suppliers to provide the IT at the rate we're recruiting.

 

[MuddyOldEngineer]

Some food for thought from this France 24 video, only 5 minutes but it shows just how resource intensive the entire process is

"France is now receiving more asylum applications than any other EU country. Last year saw some 133,000 requests, up 7.3 percent on the previous year"