Undermanning in the Armed Forces

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by smartascarrots, Nov 3, 2006.

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  1. Getting out of Afghan would help the army.
    The mission is totally unclear (please don't mention reconstuction, thats all baloney) and is in serious danger of pointless creep.
    The Americans sent out a new appointee to head their Afghan bureau, a woman whose name escapes me but who is so well informed she had never even heard of the Durand Line.
    This individual also holds the Iraqi reconstruction brief as well.

    Just shows how seriously the U.S. takes recon, doesn't it?
    Of course it could mean they have sent someone inept to be so overworked she will not notice the finacial scams going on.

    Sorry about being hazy with the details but it goes to show that the Americans have lost interest in doing anything there that doesn't involve fast moving lead.
    And no reconstruction means more war.

    If we remain we will continue to play the part of America's goons.
    Bringing our troops home from there will enable us to begin to repair the army.

    Of course this wont happen as we are in this instance part of a NATO operation and are now obliged to help secure Afghanistan which is now a country jammed in Europe somewhere between Belgium and Luxemberg.

    How did we fall for that three card trick excactly?
    The serial guilability and culpability of H.M.Gov. is becoming too painful to watch.

    An Afghanistani operation at any time is one of pure endurance.
    And for that the armed forces would need stamina and watching from the comfort of my couch these past few years I would imagine by now that's near exhaustion.

    Still I suppose we will just about get through if we can recruit enough young fat blokes to swell the ranks of the Light Amoured Nintendo & X box Division to help save a world outside their bedrooms they barely knew existed.
  2. I've just been talking to my pal in Glasgow.

    When I reminded him that as long as 4 years ago, one of DASD's most important jobs was to reduce the paper establishment of the Army in order to reduce the apprent gulf between the number of troops needed, and the number actually in service, I was not surprised to learn that the figures in this NAO report are calculated, not against the current established strngth of the Army, but the one for 2008.

    Which is even smaller.

    That is to say the reported 1.8% shortfall is in actuality much bigger (6%?).

    The books are cooked.

    But hey - this is B'liar's MoD. What else should we expect. 8)
  3. In practical terms, as you acknowledged in yr post, UK plc cannot just cut and run.

    Govt will continue to argue 'we are there to reconstruct AFG', because it cannot easily walk away from an Alliance commitment - however badly fudged. :roll:

    My challenge to Govt is simple: don't just talk about it - let us see some REAL commitment to it. I think I detect evidence that the Press are beginning to grasp what this means - but f*ck my old boots, they are SO slow on the uptake. :x

    Only if Joe Public gets the message that our troops are killing and being killed, in support of something that isn't happening, and is not likely to happen, is there likely to be anything like enough pressure on the gubmint to make it seriously reconsider the cost:benefit equation of continuing a brit military presence in the country.

    Sadly, it follows from this, that a shift of effort away from IRQ in favour of AFG is a tactical necessity in the game of 'bring the boys home'. :cry:

    We're prob'ly having this discussion in the wrong thread - but I sense that was yr plan :wink:
  4. Not really au fait with BMI: but one of my workmates' sons passed out of RMAS 2 yrs ago, but only got in because his dad knew enough people to pull strings.

    At his medical (at ATR Pirbright IIRC) he was told he was 'obese'.
    The boy is a man-mountain: at that time, he was playing rugby and rowing for his University 1st teams. :?
  5. Erh, not quite Stonker,
    My ideas ran along the lines of recognising a pigs ear when you see one and then just getting the f'uck out from where we are already not wanted anyway and are doing no bloody good.
    We either choose to do it ourselves the easy and cheaper way, or the alternative WILL be forced upon us. And we will end up doing it the hard long expensive way.

    On another thread some one is asking if there is any truth that 16 paras got killed in Afghan.
    Someone else then asked who's asking?

    Seems we are all beginning to enter a f'ucking hall of mirrors here that Freud would probably diagnose as a symptom of the latter stages of terminal self delusion.

    If the government were to be found hiding casualty numbers we will be going the way of the old Soviet Union.
  6. Sorry Smartas,
    went totally of subject
  7. Re: Undermanned:
    Perhaps our recruiters could start lying like the Yanks are.
    On the Raw Story site there is a vid & article about recruiters telling kids either the war is over in Iraq or that they wont get sent there anyway and anyway if you don't like the army you can leave anytime you want!

    There's a lot going for that approach. Any kid that's gullible enough to swallow that bollocks would already be showing the necessary ability to swallow any other bollox on offer.

    So after a dose of hard training and a swift boot up arse by a drill sergeant to help them up the ramp into the C1 you could tell them their just taking a flight to New Jersey and they would believe it.

    And none of them would ever twig that ITS ALL ABOUT OIL STOOPID!
  8. My first impression on reading the article was that we are unlikely in the extreme to have any political enthusiasm for reducing commitment because that would look too much like an admisison of failure. My personal feeling is that the Government believe politics is the first, last and only priority and all else must be bent to that. This will inevitably continue to impact on recruitment/retention and the condition of the Army as a whole.

    BMI isn't the most reliable indicator of fitness/obesity, since it doesn't diferentiate between lean muscle and fat, so as has been pointed out people with large amounts of upper body muscle score as obese. However, I thought it interesting that the standards were being revised. Does this herald more changes in future if the recruiting shortfall isn't arrested? Can we foresee the day when the duration of both CMS and Special to Arms training is reduced because of the need to provide warm bodies as happened in both World Wars?
  9. we are a losing both wars.
    there really is nothing to do but change tack.
    there is an article on troop number crisis in U.S in today's wash. post.

    our opponents are running their side of the wars cheaper.
    they have no shortage of willing volunteers, their kits cheaper and their supply lines are much shorter.

    high tech wars are, it is becoming increasing clear, O.K. if the job is completed in reasonably short order. After that the very things that gave us an initial advantage begin to become mill stones around our necks.

    They only need to keep things going driving us towards bankruptcy and all the while they are keeping in the black. They have advantages no money can buy.

    They are on home turf, they speak the lingo and need and want to repel boarders.
    Oh, and have you noticed the men in the jellabas carrying AK's and rocket launchers - carry no fat.
  10. If BMI is increased its not the end of the world as its not an accurate method of measuring fitness/ health. I had a freind in the Marines who got out to join the police. On his medical he was told he was obese accourding to his BMI, but like most royals he was a gym queen who spent 3 hours a day admiring himself in the mirrors whilst doing weights.

    Perhaps a different approach to basic training is required. Instead of going straight into military training why not have a fitness beat up like for P company. Spend a few weeks ragging them up to the required fitness and then spend money kitting them out and training them. save a fortune on kit being binned when they cant cut it.

    As far as retention goes the powers that be should start looking after the guys if they want to keep us. Its not always the case that the people leaving hate the job, in some cases its because they need a stable family life and dont want to move every 3 years. I feel that the Army could do more when it comes to housing. What is wrong with a soldier getting a £30,000 + loan to purchase a property and why should he have to have served so long to qualify. If soldiers where able to by their own home and be able to live in it throughout their career (within reason) then the army would save a fortune and more importantly keep the soldiers happy.

    This is only one thought of many on retention ive chosen this one as im thinking of leaving for civie strasse with under 4 years to push till my 22 and not because i hate the job or dont want to do any more tours but because my family needs stability.
  11. I like Baldy's idea of a longer induction period before kit issue, not only for the fitness side but to see if they are up to the job, mentally. I'm convinced that a large amount of wastage is down to kids not being robust enough character-wise to take a beasting or being wet, cold and hungry for days on end. Even some trained soldiers I've known wendy at the drop of a hat; to me that's a clear sign that they've not been properly trained.

    UK definitely needs to look after the troops better. We can all see other armies and hear of their ts & cs and ours compare pretty unfavourably (I'm thinking of MoD turning down UN pay for Bosnia when every other nation took it).

    I'm not sure that a lump sum housing loan would help much in the new super-regiment system. Without the arms plot rotation, troops in unpopular postings would be less likely to realise the kind of sums of their counterparts in elsewhere. This would need a weighting of the allowance to make these locations more attractive.

    Also, there's a danger that house prices might mean that, say, a young JNCO or SNCO might not be able to afford to move his family between Bns if he wanted to improve his promotion prospects. Ballykinler to Edinburgh would be one hell of an expensive move, for example.

    This could mean that certain Battalions come to be looked on as a dumping ground for career dead ends as COs struggle to keep their best and soldiers wangle themselves the best deal. Posting to such a place won't do much for morale and might convince guys to leave.
  12. Smartass, earlier, you hit on the nail an error in thinking that this nation has made time and time again in warfare.
    You more or less admit that things in Afghan are already a failure, which is why we now have to stay.
    Because to leave now would be an admission of failure, which we most especially can't do, if things are a failure.
    According to that logic the more a failure a mission is the more essential it is to stay in case anyone else notices that our mission has been a failure.

    Please clarify, are we trying to fool ourselves or the otherside?
    Either way if that's the level of general service thinking then I think
    everyone concerned should be sectioned under mental health act. without delay.

    If things weren't so tragic, I wouldn't laugh so hard.
  13. Obese recruits? Now the chap who re-wrote that policy has never done a Casevac with poncho or lite weight stretcher.... LOL

    Perhaps we could the little mites on the Atkins plan at Depot....
  14. When will the powers that be admit that Retention and Recruitment go hand in hand and stop treating them as 2 seperate problems. How many people do you know who joined up because someone they knew had and told them it was brilliant (not including the careers office as they lie for a living).

    One of the reasons were not getting the recruits is no-one is saying anything good about the army.

    You used to say how great it was because you got paid loads compared to civvies but you can claim more on bennefit than a private gets paid.

    You used to say how great it was going adventure training but with operational tours and other commitments you dont get the chance now.

    you used to say how great the sunshine postings where but they are getting fewer and fewer.

    At the end of the day you dont mind eating a sh1t sandwhich every now and again as long as you can get something nice to take the taste away.

    Dont get me wrong though i love being in the army and even though my job has more downs at the moment than ups i'm still enjoying it.