UKSF training staff to face CM over SAS(R) deaths

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by alfred_the_great, Nov 2, 2017.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. This one (still locked). Inquest Into SAS Deaths On Training Hike
  2. Thanks. Useful content starts about page 10.
  3. The bottom line is that the failure to qualify selection or to be unprepared on exercise should not carry the penalty of death

    The inquest found failings in the running of that selection and a court martial has been scheduled

    They may or may not have still pushed themselves to such a limit that they would have died anyway even with the right measures in place, others also went down and ultimately survived in the end

    Good men have died, they may or may not have had the opportunity to retry selection at a later date, and the reserves has definately lost some of their better men that could have remained quality reserves even with a selection failure
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Sighs.... I'll bite the Troll's hook. Let's use a more extreme example.

    You're planning a field exercise, where you're going to tab into the middle of an arduous training area. You don't bother to take a Medic, or consider CASEVAC. You don't bother to check comms or have a comms plan. It's a hot day, you don't bother to check the availability of water on the training area, and assume the line "CQMS will carry water replen in his landrover" in the exercise plan is the magic get-out-of-jail-free card. There's a dotted line on the map close to your route, but as you only did a map recce you don't realise that it's a narrow footpath and impassable to vehicles (because the bloke who ran it last year said there was a track, and plenty of streams).

    Congratulations, you're now directing the exercise. It's a nice hot day, and all the streams are dry. Of the hundred on the exercise, one of them endures the 1% likelihood accident where a branch springs back into their eye, or they slip on a log and break an ankle. Everyone is carrying extra water, but after a few hours, three Sappers go down with heat injury. The attempted CASEVAC is enough to tip more into heat injury. Unfortunately, the nearest vehicle route is 5km away through broken country, VHF comms is unworkable, and neither Satphone nor Nokia is cutting it. The CQMS has three jerricans of water, and is sitting over the first hill on a listening watch that hears nothing. The ambulance is sat back in camp.

    According to you, it's Sapper Nobby's fault for being a dick and slipping on a log - if he loses the eye due to a delay in treatment, it's him to blame. It's Sapper Nobby's fault for only carrying four litres of water on a day when the wet-bulb / dry bulb is saying "really, don't do this shit". As for the heat injuries, they should have refused to soldier after the first few hours and the absence of a water replen, or it's their own damn fault.

    Anyone whose plans rely on "everything works, nothing bad happens" is a muppet who shouldn't be allowed to breed - it's no better than the idiots who walk up Ben Nevis in flipflops because it's a sunny day.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    • Like Like x 21
  5. I don't believe I ever said it did, in posting the H & S mantra. It is EVEYONES responsibility, employer AND employee.

    And what is "reasonably practicable"? A medic shadowing every recruit doesn't cut it.

    "......try that one on". Pah!
    • Like Like x 1

  6. And its amazing the different members who posted in that one but have said very little in this.
    I suppose they might not be active members anymore.
  7. No, but planning and running the selection in accordance with the regulations could/would have made a difference

    SAS soldiers died during training due to a catalogue of 'gross failures'

    The three British soldiers who died during a selection test for the SAS were killed as a result of a catalogue of “gross failures” by one of the military’s elite units, their inquest concluded.

    Lance-Corporals Edward Maher and Craig Roberts and Corporal James Dunsby died from the effects of heat exhaustion after a series of “serious mistakes and systemic failures”, coroner Louise Hunt ruled in Solihull.

    The three were taking part in a 26-mile endurance march in the Brecon Beacons in Wales in searing temperatures when they collapsed. Two of the men – Maher, 34, from Winchester, and Roberts, 24, from Llandudno – died on the hills. The third soldier, 34-year-old Dunsby from Trowbridge in Wiltshire, collapsed but died two weeks later in Birmingham’s Queen Elizabeth Hospital.

    In a damning verdict, the coroner concluded that the three deaths were the consequence of “neglect” by the Army, which failed to follow its own rules. She said if the officers and junior ranks supervising the march in July 2013 had obeyed Ministry of Defence guidelines, the march would have been stopped six hours into the test when the first troops began to collapse with heat exhaustion. Had it been stopped, all three men would still be alive.

    In the following three are parts about the 2 concerned who have been charged for a court martial (after originally deciding not to press ahead with the charges) and the MoD being exempt from
    HSE prosecution

    Two charged after three soldiers die in recruitment exercise
    • Like Like x 2
  8. overopensights

    overopensights LE Book Reviewer

    You were never in the Infantry were you?
    • Like Like x 2
  9. As it happens yes I was. Killing people on selection is not a good use of resources.
    • Like Like x 2
  10. overopensights

    overopensights LE Book Reviewer

    That's a bit harsh, Killing people on selection?
    May I ask the question again? were you ever a 'Regular Infantry soldier? I ask because I cannot quite reconcile some of your extreme points of view, you seem to have lead some sort of 'protected existence' and the Beacons incident seems to be perhaps the worst you have experienced, or read about?
    • Like Like x 1
  11. jrwlynch

    jrwlynch LE Book Reviewer

    Would negligently and avoidably letting your own men die look less criminally foolish, just because it was done by someone with a particular cap badge?

    Is there some particular malignant idiocy you ascribe to the regular Infantry that make the events under discussion look less slapdash and stupid, because the infantry can't be expected to know better?
    • Like Like x 4
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. For when it comes to slaughter,
    You will do your work on water,
    And you'll kiss the bloomin' boots of 'im that's got it......

    Anyway, whilst Kipling is a nice historical bookend (we could go go farther back), I am perpetually stunned that there are still some who think that hard training means that it needs to be almost unlicensed and uncontrolled. Back in the day, there but for the Grace of God go many of us, certainly me.

    I do know though, that if anyone had died on training on my watch in these circumstances now I would have had no choice but to to stand to attention and ******* take it.

    And quite right too.
    • Like Like x 4
  13. overopensights

    overopensights LE Book Reviewer

    You are coming in from the completely wrong angle. The army, especially the 'Teeth Arms' is a bloody and dangerous game, even in basic field training it takes lives and limbs, and always has done. That was always well and truly realized, but now less appreciated by the civil population in recent times, when softer attitudes prevail. During field firing exercises and range work accidents do happen, not unlike road accidents happening, on the whole military training accidents are low in comparison with the amount of training that takes place.

    Of course the Beacons deaths are extremely very tragic, just like any premature death. The Regt will also think so. The two men who are blamed must feel it badly to. We now wait until the 'press' just like a pack of hounds, crowd outside the courtroom. They will descend on the building, to try to make the whole event even more tragic and 'news-worthy than it is.
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  14. jrwlynch

    jrwlynch LE Book Reviewer

    Well, it's not my call to make: though I do wonder whether, if my angle is "completely wrong", the coroner wasn't convinced and why a court-martial's being convened.

    If it actually was "well and truly realised" then, perhaps, there'd have been better measures in place to deal with casualties when they occurred.

    After all, how could anyone have predicted heat casualties during an endurance march in hot weather, high humidity and still air?

    Not him, obviously.

    The issue is not that there were casualties during the exercise: the issue is that, when they occurred, they became fatalities when there was no need, nor operational benefit, in their doing so.
    • Like Like x 3
  15. I’ve seen and been in involved in ops overseas, including the results of when things go wrong in training.

    I’ve also had (sensible) health and safety training because of my job. Allowing the people you have a duty of care over to die because you didn’t do your job properly, as the Coroner has ruled, is not acceptable now, and also wasn’t acceptable when either of us did our basic training. They weren’t on ops or even training, it was as selection event, albeit an arduous one. However that doesn’t excuse the failings of the DS under law, hence the Coroner’s unambiguous comments and the pending CMs.

    Just because the people who died were supposed to be more ruffty tuffty than most of us doesn’t make this any less true
    • Like Like x 4