Ukrainian Orthodox Church breaks from Russian control

#22
Where’s KGB_ resident? We need their valuable insight into this disgusting western coup against Mother Russia!


They're all in the briefing at the moment.

I expect that tomorrow's MSM will be filled with shocking exposees and concerned reader comments about the Ukrainian church and its adherents.
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
#23
To be fair, I doubt that even the resident St. Petersburg trolls here will have much to say about this matter now that it is settled. Previously they could have followed the RT/Moscow line that the split was never going to happen and that it wouldn't be official if it did.

However, given that the head of the Orthodox Church in Constantinople has signed the relevant documentation to agree to the Ukraine Orthodox Church becoming an independent entity, it is difficult to see how even the propaganda trolls can argue that it hasn't happened or that it is unofficial. Of course, like the RT coverage itself, they could always promote the idea that nobody else agrees that it is official, despite having been signed by the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the head of the Orthodox Church worldwide.
Split on Christmas Eve: Ukraine’s Orthodox Church gets independence decree from Constantinople

However, the only believable line being taken is that the Moscow-led Orthodox Church objects. Given that they have lost control over religion within the Ukraine, and thus their own influence and power has been substantially reduced, this is not surprising. Laughably, the report is critical of state interference in the Ukrainian Church's move to independence, the irony being blinding in light of the influence of the Russian state in the Russian Orthodoxy.

I imagine that the best that the Russian Church can do now is to pretend that it hasn't happened or that it is too insignificant to waste time with. That line wouldn't work very well if the trolls began joining online discussions and helping to bring it to the world's attention.
 
#24
Should a new branch of the Church of England schism here in the UK, I doubt it would have political ramifications and reflect poorly n the government.
It might pose questions of which one the Head of State should be head of and who the Lords Spiritual seats should belong to, even if just to reinforce the rump as the One True CofE.
 
#25
My Ukrainian wife says it is purely about politics and money, and to cement Pres. Poroshenko's position, but then she is somewhat jaded and cynical about Ukraine at the moment...
 
#26
My Ukrainian wife says it is purely about politics and money, and to cement Pres. Poroshenko's position, but then she is somewhat jaded and cynical about Ukraine at the moment...

Thats very much the Moscow line, and its arguable that the Church is as much about corruption, money and politics as the politicians are! However, the fault line of this schism has been growing since the end of the Soviet Union, and so long pre-dates Poroshenko's appearance on the scene.
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
#27
It might pose questions of which one the Head of State should be head of and who the Lords Spiritual seats should belong to, even if just to reinforce the rump as the One True CofE.
We already have splits in the Church of England. There are three different versions; the Broad Church, the Catholic Anglicanism, and the Evangelical Anglicanism.

Each have slightly different views on what the Church of England should be, but all have the Queen as their spiritual head.
 
#28
In my experience in Russia - including during that period when the Salvation Army was banned ("a fascist military organisation", to quote someone who was the RO equivalent of an arch-bishop...) - the Orthodox church there was a very unpleasant and un-Christian organisation, especially at state level.

The church was never proscribed, or part of the opposition or underground refusenik movements during soviet times - it was very much an instrument of state used as a useful management tool to browbeat the remaining elements of the population that still favoured superstition over communism.

In the smash-and-grab criminality of the 1990s in Russia, the church was very much part of the get (very, very) rich quick movement. At a time when there was no clear title to property or land (the richest/best-connected person always wins in Russia), the Orthodox Church had a competitive advantage in that it had plausible claim to those bits of land which had a church or monastery sitting on them.

The church duly sold or attempted to sell many of these parcels of land (lots of brown envelopes and Swiss bank account details being exchanged), especially to foreign corporations attempting to make legal and secure basaes for their start-ups in Russia. Funnily enough, few of these transactions were valid, as all those churches and monasteries happened to be state assets and not church assets!

A lot of inward investment into these sites avoided being stolen, as from 2000, Putin had the difficult choice of either enforcing state ownership in order to spite foreigners, or legitimise the church's title to historic (ie pre-communist) real estate in order to continue the soviet style pact with the church. He chose the latter, and now its very much business as usual, with the Orthodox Church playing its role as an arm of state and actor in the new nationalistic mythology.


p.s. the Salvation Army was at the time highly respected in Russia, as it was about the only source of organised charitable work for the destitute and homeless - e.g. it ran soup kitchens for vulnerable street people. When it was kicked out, there was no move by the church to take over this work, and a few maverick monks who had worked with foreign NGOs were themselves sanctioned.

I could mention a string of anecdotes to do with the Russian Orthodox Church but, in a sign of the times, I may need to go back to Russia one day and so will desist!
It seems to be reminiscent of the church in England in the middle ages.
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
#29
My Ukrainian wife says it is purely about politics and money, and to cement Pres. Poroshenko's position, but then she is somewhat jaded and cynical about Ukraine at the moment...
That is entirely possible, but it might also be that Ukrainian politicians recognise that Moscow can act within the Ukraine through the Russian Orthodox Church and want that back door source of propaganda closed.

It certainly helps Poroshenko's position if he pledges to rid the country of any lingering Russian control, and cutting the ties between the Russian Church and Ukrainian one will undoubtedly do that. I think it is a little rich for RT/Moscow to be accusing him playing politics with religion, however, when it is the Moscow government who have politicised the Russian Church in the first place.

The problem with a state tying every aspect of life to politics is that it become hard to disentangle one from the other. RT have been complaining about politics being behind broadcasting restrictions and criticism placed on them abroad, yet they are an arm of the Russian government and are therefore a political entity themselves. The Russian Orthodox Church is similarly a tool of Russian policy, so any interference with it will inevitably have political consequences and goals.
 
#31
It seems to be reminiscent of the church in England in the middle ages.

Like many aspects of Russian society, I think the church has barely changed since the Middle Ages.

If you attend an orthodox service, its conducted in a manner and environment very much how you'd picture 14th/15th century English religious services, based on what archaeologists and historians tell us.

If you go to one of the old churches in a village out in the sticks, where the houses are log cabins and there is no metalled road, its quite easy to imagine that you have gone through a time warp and back a few centuries!
 
#32
That is entirely possible, but it might also be that Ukrainian politicians recognise that Moscow can act within the Ukraine through the Russian Orthodox Church and want that back door source of propaganda closed.

It certainly helps Poroshenko's position if he pledges to rid the country of any lingering Russian control, and cutting the ties between the Russian Church and Ukrainian one will undoubtedly do that. I think it is a little rich for RT/Moscow to be accusing him playing politics with religion, however, when it is the Moscow government who have politicised the Russian Church in the first place.

The problem with a state tying every aspect of life to politics is that it become hard to disentangle one from the other. RT have been complaining about politics being behind broadcasting restrictions and criticism placed on them abroad, yet they are an arm of the Russian government and are therefore a political entity themselves. The Russian Orthodox Church is similarly a tool of Russian policy, so any interference with it will inevitably have political consequences and goals.
The back door may still be there for the Kremlin. The UOC of the Moscow patriarchy still have a lot of parishes witin Ukraine and they do control or own a number of important religous sites such as Pechersk Lavra and Pochayiv Lavra:

Kiev Pechersk Lavra - Wikipedia

Pochayiv Lavra - Wikipedia

From what I understand some or many of the Moscow Patriarchy parishes and preists have been supporting the Kremlin line and this will likely continue with the Kremlin also possibly engineering pretexts for further excuses to stir the pot in Ukraine.
 
#33
My Ukrainian wife says it is purely about politics and money, and to cement Pres. Poroshenko's position, but then she is somewhat jaded and cynical about Ukraine at the moment...
I think i can agree with that. Whilst it's good news for Ukraine to get the break from Moscow, Poroshenko needs it too since he has an election coming up.

And the church is not immune to corruption and th ebreak from Moscow will be seen as a chance for some to get their hands into a more lucrative till.
 

Sadurian

LE
Book Reviewer
#34
An interesting and enlightening opinion piece from Germany's DW today.
Opinion: Ukrainian Orthodox Church independence is a mistake | DW | 11.01.2019

DW is known as a left-of-centre publication, but one that usually attempts to maintain a balance in its reporting. This opinion piece, by contrast, could have come straight from RT.

The article suggests that the split is a mistake and has ostracised the majority of the rest of the Orthodox Churches around the world, claiming that Orthodox Churches around the world are opposed to the split. Yet a little more digging reveals that all the opposition actually comes from members of the Russian Orthodox Church based in other countries and in the synod. It is not the other Churches that are raising these objections, but Russia. Further digging reveals that the Russian Orthodox Church has been in dispute with Constantinople (the seat of power of all Orthodox Churches) for many years so it is hardly likely to be in agreement with Constantinople's decisions.

The article also briefly mentions that 'many in the Ukraine' believe that the Russian Orthodox Church is controlled by Putin, something that the writer dismisses with a casual 'but that is far removed from reality.' That is an... interesting assertion when DW's own previous articles reported that the Russian Orthodox Church and state have never been closer and that Putin uses faith as a political tool.

Finally, the opinion piece doesn't miss mentioning that the split has been 'applauded' by US officials. Obviously the suggestion is that the split must be bad if the USA supports it.

The piece was penned by Miodrag Soric, not someone I have any knowledge of, but as a propaganda piece it ticks all the boxes.
 
#36
There were at least four technically Orthodoxal churches in the Ukraine:
1) Ukrainian orthodoxal Church (of Moscow Patriarhate) - the only recognised by the other Orthodoxal churches,
Schizmatic and not recognized by other Orthodoxal Churches:
2) Ukrainian Orthodoxal Church (of Kievan Pathriarhate)
3) Ukrainian Autocefalic Orthodoxal Church;
4) Ukrainian Reformatic Orthodoxal Church.
Also there are some Uniates (who worship as Orthodixal, but controlled by Roman Heretics), Muslims and Neo-pagans.

Now, Dimitros Archondonis (Church name - Bartholomeus I), supported by Septics (with their pet - Poroshenko) decided to play in the "Eastern Pope" and created another illegal and unrecognised structure in the Ukraine: "Saint Ukrainian Church" that is controlled by Constantinopolis (not independent) and supported by Poroshenko, based on numbers two and three in the list. Ukrainian Orthodoxal Church (of Moscow Petriachate) didn't ask for "independence" and dont take
So, as you see, they dont build "Church with Christ", they need - "Church without Russians" (sorry for hate speech, but is exactly what they want), so it is death-borned project - "Church for Atheists" , especially if Poroshenko will not be reelected this March (it will be difficult to him to do, with 5% rating).

Just for information: there is The Church, leaded by Christ, technically but temporary divided in two basic Churches - Heaven's (consisted by Angels and righteouses souls) and Earths (technically divided in 15 national Churches and 5 autonomous).
 

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