Ukrainian 737 crashes in Iran

Iran will be giving Canada access to "black box" data from the crash aircraft. Canada will be deploying a second team of investigators to download and help analyse the data.
Canada getting access to black boxes from downed Ukrainian airliner - but role in investigation still unclear
Officials from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada say Iran is giving Canadian investigators access to the "black box" flight data recorders from downed Ukrainian International Airlines Flight PS752, but Canada's role in the investigation beyond that remains unclear.

"The TSB will … deploy a second team of investigators with expertise in aircraft recorder download and analysis once we confirm where and when this activity will take place," said TSB's Kathy Fox today during the TSB's first public update of its efforts to participate in the crash probe.
This degree of access to the investigation goes well beyond what Iran is required to do under international agreement, which normally would only allow Canada to visit the crash site, receive copies of whatever data the investigating country decides to release, and to get a copy of the final report.
Fox said that when a plane crash is being investigated by another country, Canada usually is entitled only to visit the accident site, receive copies of information released by the country investigating the crash and get a copy of the final investigation report.

Giving Canadian investigators access to the flight data recorders is more than international law requires, Fox said.

Transport Minister Marc Garneau called Iran's decision to give Canadian experts access to the recorders "very, very significant."
There are still things which need to be understood, including what happened in the final moments on board the plane when it appeared to be turning.
"Yes, Iran admitted to shooting down this airplane but we want to know exactly what happened on the airplane in the last seconds," Garneau told CBC News Network's Power & Politics today.

"We know that after the strike occurred, the airplane went into a turning pattern. We don't know exactly what was going on on board."
The chair of Transportation Safety Board of Canada was asked if the world has done enough to implement the recommendations of the investigation into flight MH17 which was shot down over Ukraine. She said no, that report warned that officials in countries where there is armed conflict taking place cannot be counted on to bar commercial airliners from their airspace on their own initiative, and that the present crash is a result of that.
Fox was asked today if the world went far enough in implementing the recommendations in the Dutch report on the destruction of MH17.

"If you look at the reality of the situation, the answer is no," she said.

Fox cited a warning included in that report — that in countries where there is "ongoing armed conflict," officials cannot be counted on to bar commercial airliners from the airspace on their own initiative.

"They recognized, when this report was issued, that there were still potential gaps. And unfortunately, we're seeing the results of that."
The news story doesn't elaborate beyond that, but the implication seems to be that the investigation may produce a conclusion that some other party should be also made responsible for ensuring that commercial planes do not fly into or through conflict zones. Possibly this may be requiring airlines, or the countries which host airlines to take more responsibility for ensuring that their flights are conducted in a safe manner with respect to the dangers presented by conflict.
 
Under international agreement, the Montreal Convention, the families of passengers who died in the crash are entitled to compensation from the airline. The initial threshold for compensation is $232,000 without having to prove fault.
Families of PS752 victims could go after Ukraine airline or Iran in bid for compensation
Fiorante said people travelling to Canada on a one-way ticket or returning to Canada on a round-trip ticket would be covered by the Montreal Convention, an international treaty to which Canada and Ukraine are signatories, but Iran is not.

Under the Convention, airlines are responsible for compensating victims' families in the case of an "accident," which is defined broadly and would include a missile strike, Fiorante said.

Families are entitled to provable damages up to an initial threshold of $232,000, without having to prove fault.

Compensation covers, at a minimum, things like funeral expenses and lost belongings, but can be expanded to include loss of future income and other damages related to the loss of a loved one.

Any final amount would be determined in the court where the complaint is filed, Fiorante said.
A Toronto lawyer who practices aviation law said that the airline was negligent and should have cancelled fights given the situation at the time. This would appear to be on top of the compensation under the Montreal Convention.
Vincent Genova, a Toronto lawyer who practices personal injury and aviation law, said the families of Canadian citizens and those with ties to Canada could most likely launch a civil action in a Canadian court against Ukraine International Airlines, the operator of Flight PS752.

Genova said family members can make the case that the airliner was negligent and should have cancelled the flight due to the security situation in the region.

"I think most people are quite shocked that the plane was allowed to take off in what could have been a war zone and certainly a dangerous time given the the political climate in that region," said Genova.
The story also notes that Iran sued the US in international court when the US shot down Iran Air Flight 655, killing all 290 passengers. That court case took years to get a result, but eventually the US paid $131 million in compensation.
In 1989, the Iranian government made such a claim against the United States for shooting down Iran Air Flight 655. That flight was on its way from Tehran to Dubai when two surface-to-air missiles launched from the U.S. Navy cruiser USS Vincennes brought it down over Iranian territorial waters.

All 290 people on board were killed.

The international court case dragged on for years, but eventually the U.S. government eventually agreed to pay $131 million in compensation to Iran and the families of the victims.
The above is speculative at this time, but this would appear to indicate what avenues are open for seeking financial compensation.
 
Which reinforces my earlier observation that uncontained engine failures generally result in damage immediately adjacent to the engine.

Let me be crystal clear on this, I am not an expert but the penetrating damage about 2/3rds of the way up the vertical stabiliser (fin) is extremely unlikely to have been caused by such an event. When an engine throws a blade the blade would fly out in the rotational plane of the blade disc, sideways. It also has to get out of the cowling which is unlikely as the cowling I specifically designed and indeed required by regulation to contain such an event. The Southwest incident belies that of course so let’s continue with the assumption the cowling failed and debris was ejected sideways.

The forward motion of the aircraft would then deflect that blade effectively rear wards, the leading edge damage in the wiki link above is the proof of that. However, it is imho impossible for debris to exit the cowling, go rearwards with the slipstream and then make a further turn to enter the vertical surface of the stabiliser at what appears to be almost 90 degrees (it’s a puncture, not a gash, the former you’d expect from a near to perpendicular entry, the latter you’d expect from a tangential entry). Pure physics and the energy involved in this make this highly improbable imho. If you’re taking notes, a blade separation from an RB211 engine fan, the big bit at the front has enough energy to chick a car several hundred feet into the air.

So back to hole in the fin. It could have happened as the debris hit the ground but again, it’s too neat. I’d expect a gash with adjacent witness marks (scratches) and possibly whatever made the hole still stuck in it.

One possible explanation for what looks like a neat, through and through hole is a chunk of proximity fused warhead. I’m now way out of my comfort zone again so over to those with experience in such weapon systems.

Before I go, a bit of thread drift. What a blade separation looks like:

That, and the image of the engine that took a tumble and smacked the wall was still basically intact and not showing any signs of "'splody boomy firey bang bang."
 
My backside they are.

This is a classic Russian troll disinformation technique that we should all be familiar with. After everybody has wasted time pointing out the obvious differences over a number of pages, he'll move onto another spurious example and the process starts again. 50 pages down the line he'll come back to this daft comparison.

Mods should be recognising this behaviour for what it is and taking action.
No. That would be impossible, as Sixty has already punished me for hurting numerous trolls' feelings, and can't be seen to make any corrections to his actions, hence TardEx continues to run wild all over the place, including the Assassination Thread.
 
the US and UK wilfully derailed Iran's nascent democracy, apparently all for the price of oil. The results have been heartbreaking. Even though I wasn't yet born in 1953 I feel bad about what we did.
Apparently one of our septic readers didn't like mention being made of Operation Ajax - his country's 1955 operation to sabotage democracy in Iran. I'm referring to the operation US Secretary of State Albright apologizes for in this video:

More information about this unfortunate blot on the history of US conduct here:
 
from BBC

Several people have been detained in Iran over the accidental shooting down of a Ukrainian passenger plane with a missile, the country's judiciary says.
Spokesman Gholamhossein Esmaili said investigations into the incident were continuing, but provided no details.
President Hassan Rouhani said the probe would be overseen by a "special court".
 

TamH70

MIA
from BBC

Several people have been detained in Iran over the accidental shooting down of a Ukrainian passenger plane with a missile, the country's judiciary says.
Spokesman Gholamhossein Esmaili said investigations into the incident were continuing, but provided no details.
President Hassan Rouhani said the probe would be overseen by a "special court".
I've heard of that kind of thing before. A "judge" called Freisler did a lot of trials in "special courts" in Berlin until the Yanks dropped his court building around his head in 1945.

Hopefully, something similar will happen to the "judges" involved in this show trial.
 
Apparently one of our septic readers didn't like mention being made of Operation Ajax - his country's 1955 operation to sabotage democracy in Iran. I'm referring to the operation US Secretary of State Albright apologizes for in this video:

More information about this unfortunate blot on the history of US conduct here:
Already discussed in the other thread, the "experiment" with a "little bit of democracy" was started by the Shah's father, the Shah. It was hijacked by socialists. It was Mossadegh's coup. The Shah left temporarily of his own volition and returned shortly thereafter with assistance from UK, and US, ending the coup. The coup that put his father in place took 3 years. His counter-coup against Mossadegh was less. Mossadegh wasn't elected by the people, he was put in place by the religious Parliament. Democracy is idiocracy anyway, and Mossadegh's coup attempt was s theocracy, same as the current mess.
 

TEEJ

Old-Salt
New footage. CCTV with the incorrect date but that is not uncommon.

The footage does appear to match up with 2 missile launches and then the fireball of the aircraft as it makes its turn.

 
New footage. CCTV with the incorrect date but that is not uncommon.

The footage does appear to match up with 2 missile launches and then the fireball of the aircraft as it makes its turn.

That's a quite slow missile, if it was one.

Edit...


Nah...
 

TEEJ

Old-Salt
That's a quite slow missile, if it was one.

Edit...


Nah...
Nothing amiss with that video. Filmed from a distance of about 4 miles away. The second missile detonates while under rocket thrust which is consistent with the video filmed from Parand. Some people were puzzled as to why the individual was out filming and the new video from Bidkaneh indicates why. The person filming was reacting to the first missile detonating.

See following link for Parand video and second missile impact.

Video Apparently Showing Flight PS752 Missile Strike Geolocated to Iranian Suburb - bellingcat

The New York Times have apparently verified the latest footage.

The paper also confirmed that the new video was shot by a camera on a building roof near the village of Bidkaneh, some four miles from an Iranian military site. ....

The New York Times reported that it has verified the footage


Iran plan crash: Video shows two military missiles taking down Ukraine plane
 
Nothing amiss with that video. Filmed from a distance of about 4 miles away. The second missile detonates while under rocket thrust which is consistent with the video filmed from Parand. Some people were puzzled as to why the individual was out filming and the new video from Bidkaneh indicates why. The person filming was reacting to the first missile detonating.

See following link for Parand video and second missile impact.

Video Apparently Showing Flight PS752 Missile Strike Geolocated to Iranian Suburb - bellingcat

The New York Times have apparently verified the latest footage.

The paper also confirmed that the new video was shot by a camera on a building roof near the village of Bidkaneh, some four miles from an Iranian military site. ....

The New York Times reported that it has verified the footage


Iran plan crash: Video shows two military missiles taking down Ukraine plane
I have no problem being shown to be wrong on this. :)
 
Apparently one of our septic readers didn't like mention being made of Operation Ajax - his country's 1955 operation to sabotage democracy in Iran. I'm referring to the operation US Secretary of State Albright apologizes for in this video:
Mossadegh was never democratically elected by the citizenry of Iran though? he was nominated by the Majlis and put into office by the Shah.

In fact Mossadegh stopped an election when he realized his faction was not going to win

Anyway the Shah himself was put in place by the UK because his dad was pro nazi in 41
 
I still sometimes wonder how the situation in Iran would be - for better or worse - if the U.S. and UK didn't overthrow Mohammad Mosaddegh - maybe less of a resentment etc. in the longer term? He was democratically elected after all..would it have curbed all the insurgency? Geopolitics....eh?
Mossadegh was NOT democratically elected he was appointed BY the Shah, Reza Pahlevi
 
The plans to identify Canadians who died on the crashed plane will involve the RCMP collecting DNA samples from relatives in Canada and sending them to Tehran, which will then use them to help identify bodies. The RCMP will not be travelling to Tehran for this.
RCMP tasked with helping to identify Canadian victims of Flight PS752 crash
The RCMP has been assigned to help identify the remains of the Canadians killed in the destruction of a Ukrainian passenger plane outside of Tehran last week.

The RCMP runs the Canadian bureau of the the international police agency Interpol.

"The RCMP can confirm that Interpol Ottawa received a request for assistance. It is currently working with Canadian police of jurisdiction to collect some DNA samples from Canadian victims' families, within Canada, to assist with the identification of the victims," said RCMP spokesperson Cpl. Caroline Duval in an email.

Duval said the national police force's DNA databank will use those samples to create profiles, which will then be sent back to the Interpol team in Tehran.

She said that, so far, there's been no need to send Canadian identification investigators to Iran.
Canadian transportation investigators were on the crash site in Iran after meeting their Iranian and Ukrainian counterparts in Tehran.
Meanwhile, Iranian media reported on Tuesday that Canadian transportation investigators visited the crash site of Flight PS752, which Iran says was shot down accidentally last week by the regime's Revolutionary Guard using surface-to-air missiles.

The visit to the site took place after experts from Iran, Canada and Ukraine met in Tehran, Iran's ISNA news agency reported.
 
Interesting cameras, don't they still use infrared SLR's for this sort of thing?
 

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