UK Transport Crisis?

anglo

LE
It's been interesting reading the various reactions on social media. There's a lot of disgruntled remainers blaming Brexit full stop.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that.

I've been following a couple of HGV drivers who "vlog" on YouTube, and it seems that wages simply haven't increased in line with the cost of living. Haulage firms have therefore been able to get away with offering peanuts for the latest "poorer" country to join the EU.

Why else would it be, that most of the drivers were from the Czech Republic and Poland back in 2004, and in 2009 they were mainly Latvian and Lithuanian, then in 2015 they were mainly Romanian...?

Haulage firms (along with other areas of industry such as fruit picking, hospitality etc) have had this cheap overseas labour belt fed over the the last 15-20 years and what business wouldn't capitalise on such an opportunity to increase their profit margins?

Rather than simply cause the problem, I'd say it would be more accurate that Brexit has *exposed* the problem.

Haulage firms will now have to bump their wages up significantly, in order to be where they would have been had they increased them in line with inflation - a "wage shock" if you like.

Of course, the costs will simply be passed on to the consumer and the various haulage MDs will be silently chuckling to themselves while everyone blames Brexit instead of pointing the finger at them.

Just my thoughts. @jagman2 keen to hear your take on this?
Indeed.

Pay more then! Bar owner slammed for moaning Brexit means he can't give staff minimum wage

A REMOANING bar owner has complained that Brexit has left him unable to recruit any staff willing to work for the minimum wage.

 

syrup

LE
I'm suggesting a change in the legalities of vehicle and driver licensing: if the vehicle isn't designed, or used, for carrying goods for sale, then the driver shouldn't need a lgv licence, in the same way as quarry plant dumptrucks, for example.


Dump Trucks are on private property
Same as you don't need a driving license to drive a tractor on a farm or an internal shunt unit round a factory

Even the Armed Forces have strict rules about who can drive what in peacetime and on operations
 

RTU'd

LE
So to get an LGV C (HGV2) or LGV C+E HGV1 the costs are:
Provisional licence/medical/Driver Training/initial Driver CPC anything up to £2k.
So you have passed your test, well done & you apply for full class entitlement & digi card through DVLA.

ALLMI Lorry Loader which industry looks for up to £600 for 2 out of 3 of Hook/Cam Shell or Brick Grab.
ADR Core + Packages not including Class 1 or 7 £600 add tanks for an extra £100 or more.
Add Class 1 Explosives & Class 7 Radioactive up to £700.
Add the LPG Gas Cylinder or Petrol Tankers Course up to another £600.

So on average you might spend up to £3k to have what is needed.
Then you go to find work, but you are a newbie with no experience hence poor wages.

Every 5 years Driver CPC, 5 modules average £75 per day including upload fee.
At 5 years ADR refresher & ALMMI/RTITB (3 years) Refreshers too.

Most jobs when you start are through agencies until you build up experience.

The industry was in a crisis long before brexit & covid.
Average age of a trucker is 55 & only in recent years has it become a job the ladies will do.

When I took HGV2 (LGV C) in 1995 out of the month I took my test 2% were female.

The industry has made huge steps to make it attractive to all but the RHA live in a fantasy world.
In 26 years I have done most of the jobs you can do as a rigid driver.
I take pride in having a vocational licence as do others.

But sadly the industry needs help now to survive.

Please note these are my views and not endorsed by arrse.
 

stuskimac

Old-Salt
It is Brexit related, but it is industry created.

You are absolutely correct, cheap imported labour has been used to keep wages artificially low for over a decade. The big employers have used this as an oppurtunity to run a price war and a race to the bottom.

The result is an absolute reliance on that cheap imprted labour which has in turn reduced the attractiveness of HGV driving in Britain.

It is all low wage company's, not just hauliers, that are having to change their game.
We are a company of around 400 employees and all of them are getting or had a substantial payrise. We have a declared intention of keeping our pay above the competition.
We aren't a haulier though, we are a manufacturer that deliver our own products nationwide (pretty much)

We know that we have to pay a fair rate and despite Coronavirus we are doing so. and now declare ourselves to be a "real living wage employer"
Most traditionally low wage employers are rasping tha the world has changed and demand for employees is high

What the remainers must now accept, whether they like it or not, is that the cheap imported labour model is gone forever. I applaud it. It is causing me difficulties recruiting because demand is very high and will remain so for at least a year, probably two.

it isn't just Brexit, it's the IR35 closing of a tax loophole and its very poor working conditions.

Brexit is part of it (a significant part) but actually it is a positive.

If the likes of Aldi and Tesco have empty shelves for a while so be it, its an acceptable price to pay for real positive change.
As an ardent Brexiteer I would like to credit Brexit solely for this but it isn't the only cause.

Despite the pain it is and will continue to cause for a while yet I see only positives in the long term.
I hope your right, I truly do, but I'm sceptical, perhaps I've seen it stagnate for too long. I worry the change won't last & we'll soon slip back again.
As an aside is your fleet a"yellow disc fleet" ? as you only convey your own goods?
 
So to get an LGV C (HGV2) or LGV C+E HGV1 the costs are:
Provisional licence/medical/Driver Training/initial Driver CPC anything up to £2k.
So you have passed your test, well done & you apply for full class entitlement & digi card through DVLA.

ALLMI Lorry Loader which industry looks for up to £600 for 2 out of 3 of Hook/Cam Shell or Brick Grab.
ADR Core + Packages not including Class 1 or 7 £600 add tanks for an extra £100 or more.
Add Class 1 Explosives & Class 7 Radioactive up to £700.
Add the LPG Gas Cylinder or Petrol Tankers Course up to another £600.

So on average you might spend up to £3k to have what is needed.
Then you go to find work, but you are a newbie with no experience hence poor wages.

Every 5 years Driver CPC, 5 modules average £75 per day including upload fee.
At 5 years ADR refresher & ALMMI/RTITB (3 years) Refreshers too.

Most jobs when you start are through agencies until you build up experience.

The industry was in a crisis long before brexit & covid.
Average age of a trucker is 55 & only in recent years has it become a job the ladies will do.

When I took HGV2 (LGV C) in 1995 out of the month I took my test 2% were female.

The industry has made huge steps to make it attractive to all but the RHA live in a fantasy world.
In 26 years I have done most of the jobs you can do as a rigid driver.
I take pride in having a vocational licence as do others.

But sadly the industry needs help now to survive.

Please note these are my views and not endorsed by arrse.
From my HGV instructor experience I'd say that out of 100 trainees 1 might be a lady. But most of them have no interest in the industry and are wanting to drive HGVs so they can move horses about.

This year (and it's been an odd one) I've had just one who wants to drive for a living. There's no reason they can't of course: the days when you needed big shoulders to turn the coffee table sized steering wheel are long gone.

Given the choice, personally I prefer to drive than teach. But the hours are a bitch. I don't want to drag my sorry arrse out of bed at 4AM to start at 5, and get home at 7 when the kids have gone to bed, and then do it again tomorrow. Teaching gets me home in time for the school run and a civilised life. I do a day a fortnight to pay for my shooting but that's enough.
 
I hope your right, I truly do, but I'm sceptical, perhaps I've seen it stagnate for too long. I worry the change won't last & we'll soon slip back again.
As an aside is your fleet a"yellow disc fleet" ? as you only convey your own goods?

Two standard national operators licences, one restricted

As to slipping back, it will stabilise in a year or so I think but we'll have a shortage of drivers for 5 years plus, the genue isn't going back in the bottle
 
Admittedly some 15 years ago, but I spent the bulk of 5 years delivering to and collecting from France.
Most of their motorway services had seperate, inexpensive restaurants for truckers.
Services, and many factories, had shower facilities for delivery drivers too.
Luxembourg and Belgium also managed to cater for drivers in a similar way, as did Netherlands.
It really isn't difficult, and should come under welfare as part of the HASAW acts.
 

That article has some misleading comments in it, putting it politely
Some of it is an outright lie
Neither government or Brexit forced anyone to leave the UK

It's dishonest

Moving on to a proposed stay at home day, it's a stupid idea likely to erode public support for what the moment is a crisis not caused by drivers
It would be an error for drivers to move themselves in to a position of being blamed

As to the RHA, they can shove their opinion up their Arrse
Their opinions are not aligned with mine no matter who they claim to represent
 

kieren21

Clanker
More chance of platting piss than getting 3000 drivers to coordinate.

Theres always been mutterings of strike action as long as I can recall.

As mentioned it wouldn’t give any advantages at the moment because drivers do not need to cease work completely for leverage. The current “shortage” is a cost free/lucrative method of increasing the quality of terms and conditions.
 
More chance of platting piss than getting 3000 drivers to coordinate.

Theres always been mutterings of strike action as long as I can recall.

As mentioned it wouldn’t give any advantages at the moment because drivers do not need to cease work completely for leverage. The current “shortage” is a cost free/lucrative method of increasing the quality of terms and conditions.
as is working 100% legally.
 

Troy

LE
Sensibly, a large goods vehicle licence should apply to drivers of vehicles carrying goods. Is a bin wagon a goods vehicle?

You could debate technicalities but any employer would insist on drivers having a valid HGV, a DCPC and a Digicard. Their insurance company would demand the same as well.
So if you rocked up for a bin lorry driving job without the necessary quals you'd be turned away.

Here's another technicality for you. You only need a class 2 to drive an artic tractor unit if it's without a trailer attached. But to drive the same unit with a trailer on it you need to have a class 1. But imagine rocking up for a job driving artics with just a class 2 licence. They would have a little chuckle about it and ask you to leave.
 
You could debate technicalities but any employer would insist on drivers having a valid HGV, a DCPC and a Digicard. Their insurance company would demand the same as well.
So if you rocked up for a bin lorry driving job without the necessary quals you'd be turned away.

Here's another technicality for you. You only need a class 2 to drive an artic tractor unit if it's without a trailer attached. But to drive the same unit with a trailer on it you need to have a class 1. But imagine rocking up for a job driving artics with just a class 2 licence. They would have a little chuckle about it and ask you to leave.
How many bin wagons do you see tonking about at 56mph, though?
I'm suggesting that, in Brexit Britain, the licensing of vehicles and drivers could do with a review, that's all.
 

Troy

LE
How many bin wagons do you see tonking about at 56mph, though?
I'm suggesting that, in Brexit Britain, the licensing of vehicles and drivers could do with a review, that's all.
Well, several times a day they drop the loaders off at the cafe and then roll off to the tip or recycle centre to empty the waggon. Then they pick up the loaders again and carry on. So it's quite possible that they give it some welly going to and from the tip.
Then there's the end of day when they all want to get home. Quite likely they won't hang about then either.
 
You could debate technicalities but any employer would insist on drivers having a valid HGV, a DCPC and a Digicard. Their insurance company would demand the same as well.
So if you rocked up for a bin lorry driving job without the necessary quals you'd be turned away.

Here's another technicality for you. You only need a class 2 to drive an artic tractor unit if it's without a trailer attached. But to drive the same unit with a trailer on it you need to have a class 1. But imagine rocking up for a job driving artics with just a class 2 licence. They would have a little chuckle about it and ask you to leave.
Indeed so. The “+E” entitlement relates to trailers. Thus if you have a bus/coach license and passed a C+E test, your bus license would also come back with a “+E “ entitlement as would your car.
 
Indeed so. The “+E” entitlement relates to trailers. Thus if you have a bus/coach license and passed a C+E test, your bus license would also come back with a “+E “ entitlement as would your car.
This came with EU membership.
Before that, UK had HGV3, two axles and over 7.5 tons gvw, HGV2, 3, or more, axles, and HGV1 artics.
Because in Europe they used more wagon and drags, 3 axle truck with trailer, there was no differentiation between class 2 and 1, so it was possible to swap a UK class 2 for a EU class1 without further testing.
Equally, and moreso in eastern Europe, they'd a lot of young lads experienced in hauling trailers on farm tractors, who also got a class 1 on a kind of geandfather's rights basis, and came here once allowed to, which killed drivers' pay for a decade.
 

2000AD

Old-Salt
Indeed so. The “+E” entitlement relates to trailers. Thus if you have a bus/coach license and passed a C+E test, your bus license would also come back with a “+E “ entitlement as would your car.
Indeed it does as mine did. +E added to all classes after C+E test.
 
Sort of on topic, but i got a parking ticket from my local council for parking in a bay with a goods vehicles only sign on it.
I appealed and after very much email ping pong with some probably highly paid lawyers i pointed out that the PLG on my tax disc stands for private light goods.
Give them some credit, it took them about two days to change every sign in the borough.
 

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