UK Transport Crisis?

Truxx

LE
Did you jump in a wagon with a twin splitter box and just get on with it? Or were you shown how to use it?
The former actually. At a farm at the top of the Rhonda Valley. But in a previous life I drove Foden with their own home grown 12 speed so we soon had it under control.

Fun fact: most truck auto boxes are not actually auto boxes like car ones, but are in fact a derivation of the Eaton twin splitter but with an ECU and air chambers replacing the driver.

That's why trucks can still be heard to "clunk" as the box changes gear say pulling out of a roundabout.
 
The former actually. At a farm at the top of the Rhonda Valley. But in a previous life I drove Foden with their own home grown 12 speed so we soon had it under control.

Fun fact: most truck auto boxes are not actually auto boxes like car ones, but are in fact a derivation of the Eaton twin splitter but with an ECU and air chambers replacing the driver.

That's why trucks can still be heard to "clunk" as the box changes gear say pulling out of a roundabout.

My point is that at some point you will have had to learn. Don’t look down at others because they have had to learn. Why would they need to learn about some technology that has been superseded?

I know it’s patronising the point out that the skill of operating the steering, brakes, gears etc are just a small part of driving, roadcraft is the more difficult and more important. As my old instructor said “you don’t drive a wagon, you work it”.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
The other thing that goes hand in hand with them trying to get to grips with this is that the automated ones in a buisy environment , in an attempt to be safe are a pound to a pinch of shit going to be substantially slower than the surrounding traffic on executing manoeuvres.
imagine what that is going to be like in rush hour town centres.
it will be like all the old sods in camper vans now just much more of an inconvenience to the rest of us.
I saw an early demo of fully automated systems, it'd be unfair to name the manufacturer because they were using systems developed by others...
On a fast road, they all maintained a fairly close distance - could have been closer but then needed to keep the meatbags in their comfort zone, introduce a slow vehicle in front and they all predictably slowed to it's pace, make the 'rogue' vehicle erratic and they all slowed down, backed off and spaced out.
Not one went for an overtake.

Next demo, typical parallel road intersection where the innermost and outermost lane traffic (generally) stays where it is, the two 'middle' lanes move left or right. The result? basically a robotic version of 'after you old chap' - 'no, no, after you' - 'Oh no, I insist'.....
The problem is they will all be programmed more-or-less the same so will exhibit the same behaviour - there needs to be a 'red mist' or 'fcukit, I can get in that gap' bit of random code in there somewhere, otherwise the whole world will be gridlocked because of a Rabbit with mixie sat in the middle of a road in Dorset with nothing daring to go past it in case it moves....

'Traffic' works when it is all meatbags or all automated, not mixed, that's the biggest hurdle for the programmers, ethicists and insurers to overcome.
 
As we're talking Autonomous vehicles, and people are concocting all sorts of accidents and incidents to prove the point that it will, or will not work. I'd like to ask, has anyone actually done any research on this?

I have (a tiny bit).

A few years ago a DC I was working at was looking at introducing autonomous vehicles to do some of the low grade movements about the DC (such as collecting bins, and rows of empty cages). There were of course Humans in Clamp trucks and ROPT's zipping about doing slightly more complex work such as collecting stock to bays, and loading trailers.

Part of the implementation was to assess the H&S aspects. And we were a bit stumped. We'd already proved that it was massively cost efficient. But was it safe? I had the idea of using California as a sample base, as due to Californian law all incidents involving an Autonomous vehicle need to have an incident form filled out and filed. These are then published. This gives a data set to be analysed.
I found out that 67.39% of incidents had a very similar cause: getting rear ended by a Human operated vehicle when the Autonomous car was stopped/stopping or pulling away/creeping forward to improve the view at a junction. Then the Human vehicle ploughs into the back.
The second largest group of incidents was 21.73%, and involved a human vehicle overtaking the Autonomous vehicle, and making a horlicks of it.

There was, amusingly, one incident of a collision between an autonomous vehicle and a pedestrian. The AV was stopped at a pedestrian crossing, when a male (on the other side of the road) saw it, began shouting and then lowered his head and charged the AV, ramming into it head first.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
As we're talking Autonomous vehicles, and people are concocting all sorts of accidents and incidents to prove the point that it will, or will not work. I'd like to ask, has anyone actually done any research on this?

I have (a tiny bit).

A few years ago a DC I was working at was looking at introducing autonomous vehicles to do some of the low grade movements about the DC (such as collecting bins, and rows of empty cages). There were of course Humans in Clamp trucks and ROPT's zipping about doing slightly more complex work such as collecting stock to bays, and loading trailers.

Part of the implementation was to assess the H&S aspects. And we were a bit stumped. We'd already proved that it was massively cost efficient. But was it safe? I had the idea of using California as a sample base, as due to Californian law all incidents involving an Autonomous vehicle need to have an incident form filled out and filed. These are then published. This gives a data set to be analysed.
I found out that 67.39% of incidents had a very similar cause: getting rear ended by a Human operated vehicle when the Autonomous car was stopped/stopping or pulling away/creeping forward to improve the view at a junction. Then the Human vehicle ploughs into the back.
The second largest group of incidents was 21.73%, and involved a human vehicle overtaking the Autonomous vehicle, and making a horlicks of it.

There was, amusingly, one incident of a collision between an autonomous vehicle and a pedestrian. The AV was stopped at a pedestrian crossing, when a male (on the other side of the road) saw it, began shouting and then lowered his head and charged the AV, ramming into it head first.
Which reinforces my point about mixed meatbag / automated traffic.
 

stuskimac

Old-Salt
My point is that at some point you will have had to learn. Don’t look down at others because they have had to learn. Why would they need to learn about some technology that has been superseded?

I know it’s patronising the point out that the skill of operating the steering, brakes, gears etc are just a small part of driving, roadcraft is the more difficult and more important. As my old instructor said “you don’t drive a wagon, you work it”.
Lorry driving is not just about driving trucks, its about getting the to right place, on time & the load itself in good condition, without breaking any rules. From the moment the load is put on the trailer/wagon till gets unloaded at the other end, its the drivers responsibility.
 
Lorry driving is not just about driving trucks, its about getting the to right place, on time & the load itself in good condition, without breaking any rules. From the moment the load is put on the trailer/wagon till gets unloaded at the other end, its the drivers responsibility.

Cheers, I never bothered with any of that; chucked the load on, then just gunned it. Speed limits? What speed limits? And of course the customer got what they were given, employers loved me for my pragmatic approach. :roll:

How are you with eggs?
 
To get back on the thread track I think we can all agree that autonomous vehicles are not going to solve this years transport crunch.
If the rest of stobarts goes belly up however that may help with the driver shortage for all the other firms .
 

stuskimac

Old-Salt
Cheers, I never bothered with any of that; chucked the load on, then just gunned it. Speed limits? What speed limits? And of course the customer got what they were given, employers loved me for my pragmatic approach. :roll:

How are you with eggs?
I have 20 odd years of tales of shot loads by myself & others, you definitely learn the hard way! TM's get really pissy over it too! Different loads require different ways of securing & driving style. Some drivers never learn at all.
 
To get back on the thread track I think we can all agree that autonomous vehicles are not going to solve this years transport crunch.
If the rest of stobarts goes belly up however that may help with the driver shortage for all the other firms .
It won't though.
If Stobart goes bump, his customers will still be there. They will still need trailers turning up every day, and those trailers will be provided by other hauliers, who will need to employ extra drivers to get them there. More than likely ex Stobart drivers.
The big boys will be watching this closely, as there could be a lot of rolling stock and land becoming available very cheaply, very soon.
 
I have 20 odd years of tales of shot loads by myself & others, you definitely learn the hard way! TM's get really pissy over it too! Different loads require different ways of securing & driving style. Some drivers never learn at all.

I always took the time to ensure loads were loaded and restrained properly, even then I did have two incidents that reminded me that even with care shit happens.

I was driving for Hovis, the bread trays were restrained with a spreader bar across the rear, this failed on one occasion, loaves of bread everywhere in the back of the wagon. I felt quite guilty as deliveries were late. Tescos in Skeggy had a right arse on, which helped me out as it saved sorting their order. The warehouse manager was really abusive. When he took breath I informed him that I was an agency driver and that they would always employ me because I’d make myself available at short notice. Then as I went to pull out I informed him that as he had refused receipt they would still be billed (I’ve no idea if this was true or not). M&S also refused, no abuse, they just said “sorry, it’s not to the contracted standard”.

The other time was dealing roof trusses to a building site, they hadn’t graded the road/track and I was quite concerned about getting bogged in and must have driven too fast. When I removed the restraints a few of the trusses fell. Nothing was damaged and no one was injured, but there was still that heart in the mouth moment.

Other issues I had was the customer putting the forks through a windscreen I was delivering. I was Straight on the phone to the firm to let them know it arrived in perfect condition.

Firms who expect you to answer your phone whilst driving. I always turned mine off.

Minging cabs - refused to drive them.

Firms expecting you to work beyond drivers hours - fücked off at the high port.

Had a woman claimed I’d hit her car, didn’t happen no damage to the wagon, just a chancer. I was chased for a couple of years over that, fortunately the hire agency refused to give direct contact details to the firms.

I know I may not be as experienced as many on here, but I‘m sure just those few will ring true with many.
 

Truxx

LE
My point is that at some point you will have had to learn. Don’t look down at others because they have had to learn. Why would they need to learn about some technology that has been superseded?

I know it’s patronising the point out that the skill of operating the steering, brakes, gears etc are just a small part of driving, roadcraft is the more difficult and more important. As my old instructor said “you don’t drive a wagon, you work it”.
My brother used to be a transport manager for Perkins. Agency drivers would rather go home than drive roller (well perkins actually) ERFs with twin splitter.

Yet actually all have been trained and tested (even now) on some form of range change box (it is a requirement of training and the test) so any professional driver should be able to manage.

I do not look down on any driver. But at the same time I do expect them to manage.
 
M
My brother used to be a transport manager for Perkins. Agency drivers would rather go home than drive roller (well perkins actually) ERFs with twin splitter.

Yet actually all have been trained and tested (even now) on some form of range change box (it is a requirement of training and the test) so any professional driver should be able to manage.

I do not look down on any driver. But at the same time I do expect them to manage.
Manual box not now required on test if you have a manual car licence apparently
 

Truxx

LE
I have 20 odd years of tales of shot loads by myself & others, you definitely learn the hard way! TM's get really pissy over it too! Different loads require different ways of securing & driving style. Some drivers never learn at all.
When I were a lad loading and load restraint was taught from first principles, vehicle trim sheets and optimum loading point and all that. Add in the 2,1,1 rule and it meant you could manage any load. These days though even with CPC it is all but forgotten.
 
When I were a lad loading and load restraint was taught from first principles, vehicle trim sheets and optimum loading point and all that. Add in the 2,1,1 rule and it meant you could manage any load. These days though even with CPC it is all but forgotten.


It's discussed in the CPC class room but new drivers don't generally get any practical training on it

We are ok as it's fridges and load bars so it's straight forward but I've had drivers rock up newly trained who've never touched a ratchet strap before

I haven't done it for decades but I started roping and sheeting at about 12 years old and have pretty strong memories of sheeting up paper reels!
 
It's discussed in the CPC class room but new drivers don't generally get any practical training on it

We are ok as it's fridges and load bars so it's straight forward but I've had drivers rock up newly trained who've never touched a ratchet strap before

I haven't done it for decades but I started roping and sheeting at about 12 years old and have pretty strong memories of sheeting up paper reels!

How does a new driver get trained properly? They scrape through a test as quickly as they can, CPC doesn't go far enough with the hands-on side - not what it's about anyway, and companies can't be arrsed providing proper training. So it's become a £9 per hour job.
 

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