UK Transport Crisis?

load_fin

War Hero
Was in a motorway services recently. Think it was the M40.

In the gents, at eye level, was a an advert for LGV drivers, offering a £1000 signing on bonus.
 
Did they get called "STABS" by "proper" lorry drivers?

I wouldn't know, I wouldn't get out off bed for their wages.
 
<snip>

The other issue is, how do you stop them exporting their business abroad to where the cheap labour is? Like Dyson. Not every "business problem" is constrained by having to be located within the UK. Obviously, the distribution industry is, but that does not extrapolate to "Corporations".
If they relocate overseas and still want to supply UK then they still need delivery capability. Add to that the 'issues' with border controls now (real or imaginary), then there would seem to be a driver to re-locate BACK to the UK, not away from it.
 

anglo

LE
None of you who are on the thread at the present time will see driverless automated trucks
in your lifetime,
Reason, the truck must be able to think and re act like a human being.
Think about you driving through London, that's what a truck must be capable of.
 
If they relocate overseas and still want to supply UK then they still need delivery capability. Add to that the 'issues' with border controls now (real or imaginary), then there would seem to be a driver to re-locate BACK to the UK, not away from it.
Foreign based drivers can still drive in the UK, can't they?

We have been consistently told by the pro-Brexit lobby that border controls won't be an issue once the "teething problems" are sorted out.
 
None of you who are on the thread at the present time will see driverless automated trucks
in your lifetime,
Reason, the truck must be able to think and re act like a human being.
Think about you driving through London, that's what a truck must be capable of.
No it doesn't, if it doesn't have to drive through London.
 
None of you who are on the thread at the present time will see driverless automated trucks
in your lifetime,
Reason, the truck must be able to think and re act like a human being.
Think about you driving through London, that's what a truck must be capable of.
You're making the assumption that in the first stages of automation, all trucks will have to cover everything. It is conceivable that a more stage approach could be taken.
 
Corporations have to be told in no uncertain terms that their preferred solution to every business problem of "import more cheap labour from overseas" is now no longer an option . . .
"Corporations have to be told in no uncertain terms that their preferred solution to every business problem of "import more cheap labour from overseas" is now no longer an option" . . .

Told by whom ?! . . . Have you got a link, to which I can refer ?!
 
"Corporations have to be told in no uncertain terms that their preferred solution to every business problem of "import more cheap labour from overseas" is now no longer an option" . . .

Told by whom ?! . . . Have you got a link, to which I can refer ?!
They don’t need to be told, it’s happening , covid just put the cherry on top.
Those that don’t or cannot adapt quickly to the new realities simply will not thrive.
 
Without dissing your puppy like enthusiasm how are these bright eyed acolytes of change going to avoid being bankrupted by the cenario s pointed out in my previous post.
( And just saying “ because it’s progress” wont really cut it in front of a barrister).
Again, at the risk of repeating myself, I don't think that I've mentioned anything about the difficult jobs that you mention. I suspect that the money or desire to replace those difficult jobs (sheeting skips etc) just isn't there.

That said, it only takes a little imagination to see how some of it could be achieved. Move the responsibility. That's how it would be done. You shift the responsibility of the sheeting/loading etc to the site manager etc. OK, it won't work in every case, but that is certainly what is happening in industry across the board.

No one ever saw that Stevedores, Dockers etc would be laid off in the numbers that they were.....they were untouchable. Then containerisation came in. All their job was done at either end by other people. They were simply taken out of the loop. Bulk cargo simply put into forty foot ISO containers, lifted off the ships by cranes and put onto lorries for the next part of the job.

Does it really take that much imagination to see that this could be applied to other parts of the haulage industry?

Keep on your blinkers. Keep saying that it'll never happen. I suspect that it won't affect your or my job, but it's going to affect the guys starting off in the industry and thinking that it won't is just foolhardy.

Look at the massive automated warehouses. Do you think that it would take much for trucks to have automated loading/unloading at the end of trunk routes? All you'd need is RFIDs on the boxes and you could track them to the very space on the shelf that you want. All untouched by human hand until, to use a phrase from my industry, the last mile. That's where the humans will be required for a while yet.

The long distance stuff will go first. Without doubt. That is where the big money lies. As has already been said, it's going to a while before we seen automated trucks on the side roads and cities. The technology will need to improve, mature and drop in price. It will, however, come in the end.

Take the man out of the loop. It's happening everywhere. Look at aircraft. Unthinkable only a few years ago and now UAV's are everywhere. Don't think that they are all flown by someone with a joystick on the ground. They aren't. Some are fully autonomous. Global Hawk for an example. Tell it where you want it to go, and off it jolly well f**ks. Taxis out, takes off, avoids other a/c, lands, taxis in, shuts down. No intervention needed.

Make no mistake, aircraft manufactures would dearly love to see the human out of of the cockpit of civil airliners too. Just have a look at the statistics for air crashes. How many of them are due to pilot error/pilot overwork/overstretch etc. Seriously, have a look.

Why haven't they gone already? Because the flying public want them there. They don't trust the machines, not knowing that the aircraft is already doing ninety nine percent of the work anyway. The only real reason they are still there is for when things go wrong, and increasingly if it all goes Pete Tong up there, there is c**k all the pilot can do anyway, what with Fly by Wire and automation of the systems.

That said, aeroplanes are relatively easy compared to self driving cars and lorries. They are still coming though! Not in every scenario, but in increasing numbers.

What will happen first of all, is that the easy routes will fall to automation, putting those humans out of work on that. They will then have to fight for the remaining, more difficult jobs, or change sectors completely.

As for your comment about the barrister? The laws are already being changed to accommodate automated vehicles. They will be changed again as the tech matures. Who will be responsible when a lorry ploughs into a bus queue? No idea, and that is, probably, the hardest issue for the automation of vehicles to overcome.


 
None of you who are on the thread at the present time will see driverless automated trucks
in your lifetime,
Reason, the truck must be able to think and re act like a human being.
Think about you driving through London, that's what a truck must be capable of.
Ten years! I'll predict that within ten years there will be some automated trucks going up and down the motorways.

As has already been said, you are looking at the worse case for driving through London. No one is saying they will do that job, yet.

Long distance, point to point? That tech is here already. It can be done now....it just needs to be refined and then tested to be shown to be safe.

The capability is nearly here....


The political will is there too.......



Industry wants it.


Why do you think it won't happen?
 
Again, at the risk of repeating myself, I don't think that I've mentioned anything about the difficult jobs that you mention. I suspect that the money or desire to replace those difficult jobs (sheeting skips etc) just isn't there.

That said, it only takes a little imagination to see how some of it could be achieved. Move the responsibility. That's how it would be done. You shift the responsibility of the sheeting/loading etc to the site manager etc. OK, it won't work in every case, but that is certainly what is happening in industry across the board.

No one ever saw that Stevedores, Dockers etc would be laid off in the numbers that they were.....they were untouchable. Then containerisation came in. All their job was done at either end by other people. They were simply taken out of the loop. Bulk cargo simply put into forty foot ISO containers, lifted off the ships by cranes and put onto lorries for the next part of the job.

Does it really take that much imagination to see that this could be applied to other parts of the haulage industry?

Keep on your blinkers. Keep saying that it'll never happen. I suspect that it won't affect your or my job, but it's going to affect the guys starting off in the industry and thinking that it won't is just foolhardy.

Look at the massive automated warehouses. Do you think that it would take much for trucks to have automated loading/unloading at the end of trunk routes? All you'd need is RFIDs on the boxes and you could track them to the very space on the shelf that you want. All untouched by human hand until, to use a phrase from my industry, the last mile. That's where the humans will be required for a while yet.

The long distance stuff will go first. Without doubt. That is where the big money lies. As has already been said, it's going to a while before we seen automated trucks on the side roads and cities. The technology will need to improve, mature and drop in price. It will, however, come in the end.

Take the man out of the loop. It's happening everywhere. Look at aircraft. Unthinkable only a few years ago and now UAV's are everywhere. Don't think that they are all flown by someone with a joystick on the ground. They aren't. Some are fully autonomous. Global Hawk for an example. Tell it where you want it to go, and off it jolly well f**ks. Taxis out, takes off, avoids other a/c, lands, taxis in, shuts down. No intervention needed.

Make no mistake, aircraft manufactures would dearly love to see the human out of of the cockpit of civil airliners too. Just have a look at the statistics for air crashes. How many of them are due to pilot error/pilot overwork/overstretch etc. Seriously, have a look.

Why haven't they gone already? Because the flying public want them there. They don't trust the machines, not knowing that the aircraft is already doing ninety nine percent of the work anyway. The only real reason they are still there is for when things go wrong, and increasingly if it all goes Pete Tong up there, there is c**k all the pilot can do anyway, what with Fly by Wire and automation of the systems.

That said, aeroplanes are relatively easy compared to self driving cars and lorries. They are still coming though! Not in every scenario, but in increasing numbers.

What will happen first of all, is that the easy routes will fall to automation, putting those humans out of work on that. They will then have to fight for the remaining, more difficult jobs, or change sectors completely.

As for your comment about the barrister? The laws are already being changed to accommodate automated vehicles. They will be changed again as the tech matures. Who will be responsible when a lorry ploughs into a bus queue? No idea, and that is, probably, the hardest issue for the automation of vehicles to overcome.


Thank you fore the long considered reply.
many valid points but my main point stands , primary legislation is very well to permit initial operation, but negligence and liability in English law will not be sidestepped easily And English case law will be slavering at the chops over autonomous liability.
 
Thank you fore the long considered reply.
many valid points but my main point stands , primary legislation is very well to permit initial operation, but negligence and liability in English law will not be sidestepped easily And English case law will be slavering at the chops over autonomous liability.

It doesnt seem to have stopped humanless service in other areas.
 
Last Friday night I had an Actros shut itself down in a live lane of the motorway

Stop start traffic so stationary but it literally d3cided not to move
Driver eventually got it to engage a gear and moved to hard shoulder.
Merc attended and got it moving
In to Mercedes for a full check and no fault found. No fault on trailer
Replaced a slightly loose fitting suzie as the only possible cause

I won't be buying a truck driven by a computer anytime soon
Your truck is already computer controlled. You said it yourself, it shut itself down! What could the driver actually do? All he managed to do was to get it to the hard shoulder. He couldn't continue, could he? How much of a difference would him not being there have made? A few feet? The vehicle needed to be recovered to Mercedes.

Out of interest, why didn't he just reset the computer and carry on? Oh, that's because he didn't/doesn't have the tools to do so and even if he did, then the system wouldn't have allowed him to because Merc wouldn't let him.

Much the same now with agricultural machinery. If you go and buy John Deere kit, it just won't let you do any of the work yourself, and it will shut down if it thinks you have.


The only way out of this is to buy some old Fodens with no ECU's etc.

Don't fool yourself, you nor your drivers are in charge of your fleet anymore! ;-)
 

anglo

LE
You're making the assumption that in the first stages of automation, all trucks will have to cover everything. It is conceivable that a more stage approach could be taken.
Ten years! I'll predict that within ten years there will be some automated trucks going up and down the motorways.

As has already been said, you are looking at the worse case for driving through London. No one is saying they will do that job, yet.

Long distance, point to point? That tech is here already. It can be done now....it just needs to be refined and then tested to be shown to be safe.

The capability is nearly here....


The political will is there too.......



Industry wants it.


Why do you think it won't happen?
So far automation as taken over repetitive jobs, if you want a machine to take the place of a human
being, it must be able to do exactly the same things as that human being,
for instance, it must be capable of seeing and analysing a situation in front of it
and taking the required actions.
It must also be able to hear, and be able to take the actions a human does, {police etc}
It must also see to distinguish different colours lights and judge distances.
Analyse your own driving actions, that's what a truck must do
You must be able to send the truck anywhere a human driver goes with a truck
we have a long way to go yet
 

Daz

LE
Corporations have to be told in no uncertain terms that their preferred solution to every business problem of "import more cheap labour from overseas" is now no longer an option.

Once they understand that, then we can discuss in a full and frank manner how best to accommodate their genuine concerns and how to ameliorate whatever problems they are encountering and it will be surprising how many inventive and imaginative solutions can be found.
I don't disagree with that
 
You must be able to send the truck anywhere a human driver goes with a truck

No you must not.
I have an automated lawn mower, I still have to the difficult bits that it cant reach, but it still saves me a few hours a month
 
So far automation as taken over repetitive jobs, if you want a machine to take the place of a human
being, it must be able to do exactly the same things as that human being,
for instance, it must be capable of seeing and analysing a situation in front of it
and taking the required actions.
It must also be able to hear, and be able to take the actions a human does, {police etc}
It must also see to distinguish different colours lights and judge distances.
Analyse your own driving actions, that's what a truck must do
You must be able to send the truck anywhere a human driver goes with a truck
we have a long way to go yet
Ever heard the terms "low hanging fruit" and "big data"?

The easy tasks will go first.

If you are driving a modern car, it's collecting data about you and how you drive all the time. Tesla's in particular are collecting so much data. Where you are, how fast, what time, what buttons/controls are being operated, how and when you brake, this all being correlated with the onboard cameras.

If you have a crash, you could access this data to prove your speed, controls reactions etc couldn't you? Not a chance. You don't own the data, it's theirs and they won't let you have it without a court order.

Now why do you think they are collecting this data? Hmm? For your benefit?

The cars are doing the learning for the developers. All the time. The car doesn't yet understand why you did what you did, but it soon will! Just like Google and your computer know what you did last summer!



 
Your truck is already computer controlled. You said it yourself, it shut itself down! What could the driver actually do? All he managed to do was to get it to the hard shoulder. He couldn't continue, could he? How much of a difference would him not being there have made? A few feet? The vehicle needed to be recovered to Mercedes.

Out of interest, why didn't he just reset the computer and carry on? Oh, that's because he didn't/doesn't have the tools to do so and even if he did, then the system wouldn't have allowed him to because Merc wouldn't let him.

Much the same now with agricultural machinery. If you go and buy John Deere kit, it just won't let you do any of the work yourself, and it will shut down if it thinks you have.


The only way out of this is to buy some old Fodens with no ECU's etc.

Don't fool yourself, you nor your drivers are in charge of your fleet anymore! ;-)
Your first two lines are telling. It is not acceptable that it “ just shut down “ on a live motorway lane period. The driver got it to the Hard shoulder, one assumes the “ smart system” would just leave it in the lane.
You gave some good examples of what automation can cope with now. let me give you the distaff view.
Autonomous trunking. Pluses. 1. Saves cost of driver on run.
minuses still requires driver to get unit to motorway from despatch sites ( which at present are all over the place often down rat runs) possibly the same at the other end so potentially need 2 shunt drivers .To avoid this then ? Minuses 1. New despatch sites will have to be purchased and built at hubs suitable for platooning driverless units. Big cost to offset against saved driver wages unless you have outgrown your site.
Next the platoons ( or individual units),are going to be mixing with general traffic on the motorway. ( unless you are proposing that the general taxpayer fund the huge huge expense of expanding the carriageway capacity with a dedicated lane system so that large private firms can cut their wage Bill!).
So insurance company’s are almost certainly going to insist on a “ minder driver at least in the first unit. if he or she is not actually in control at the wheel Lawyers are going to have a field day on responsibility and control in the event of an accident.
I’ll give an example of the existing rats nest legally with existing automation. The pic below is of a truck carrying steel sheet on the M6 recently.No other vehicles were involved, the truck sensors applied emergency braking severe enough to shift the load which then caused the cab tilt locks to fail and the windscreen is now below the blue stripe.
I believe the driver survived.Liability ? Not driver .load strapped? Possibly.
trailer builders( the headboard failed) possibly The truck builder for incorporating a dangerous unpredictable system? A lawyer fest.
fully automated will be this with knobs on every week.
68C82922-D843-474C-A303-EDC888990C2A.jpeg
 
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