UK to allow Chinese into 5G network

As opposed to buying kit from those nice friendly Scandinavians which is actually made in China and has no oversight by GCHQ?
As opposed to "why the fcuk didn't the UK cut it's own share of the market seeing as we were innovators in designing it"?
 
As opposed to buying kit from those nice friendly Scandinavians which is actually made in China and has no oversight by GCHQ?
Both... Why there is little doubt we as a nation, don't have same the developed manufacturing at the scale needed perhaps, and to scale up will require us to drop behind the 5G market to some degree, it would still be a better option.

Sadly Governments of all stripe have had little, long term strategic views on strategic infrastructure for donkeys years.
 
No I'm saying that 5G (and telecomms in general) is something that the UK is very much behind the curve on. We're shit hot on jet engines and construction equipment but telecomms? Meh...
I have no argument with that, its sad that it has been allowed to happen. No nation will ever be at the cutting edge of everything, and that where its feasible to work with Allies.

As it stands today, i cannot see why we don't work with the other 5 Eye nations regarding 5G, other than it wont fit a political narrative. Brexit, PESCO, Orange Man Bad etc etc. All of which are symptoms of Governments of all stripe having no, long term strategic infrastructure plan, rather just political opportunism.
 
No I'm saying that 5G (and telecomms in general) is something that the UK is very much behind the curve on. We're shit hot on jet engines and construction equipment but telecomms? Meh...
As simple Google search shows how wrong you are.

China is a producer of cheap hardware, not innovative software (their stuff's mostly based on stolen intellectual property, a lot from the US & UK).
 
As simple Google search shows how wrong you are.

China is a producer of cheap hardware, not innovative software (their stuff's mostly based on stolen intellectual property, a lot from the US & UK).
Well those US and UK universities Vice Chancellor, swish apartments, junkets and salaries wont be as swish without actively seeking to twin with China, and expect at the same time too protect intellectual property research... The same can be said for some members of Government and the senior Civil Service.



Here is a little non 5G dit the high end fashion industry, once they started moving there manufacturing to China took more than a little time to twigg why knock off's were hitting the market at the same time... I could never understand why the high end fashion industry was so dumb, its not rocket science.
 

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As simple Google search shows how wrong you are.

China is a producer of cheap hardware, not innovative software (their stuff's mostly based on stolen intellectual property, a lot from the US & UK).
Key word is "was" when we talk about the Chinese technology. They have hoovered up all the good stuff and there is nothing left of worth for them to take. This has resulted in the Chinese doing proper R&D. It makes sense as they want to be the leaders in this area, for internal reasons on controlling their people and because it makes money, real other countries type of money.

Too often people view the Chinese through a Western lens. There is a very good article in the Naval Review from an ex Lt Cdr who now works in China. He explains how they think and how they react to world events. Well worth a read and no I will not cut and paste it - join the naval review, it is a good investment.

In this case China is sneaking ahead int his area and America is not, in fact it is struggling. Google is a company struggling in the change from nibble and new to steady and reliable. It cancels product lines on whim and doesn't want to do the long hard work in product maintenance. Amazon isn't sure if it wants to sell stuff or run data centres, with both requiring mega data trawls to work. Apple is trying but it needs the cheap production lines of SE Asia to turn a profit.
 
Key word is "was" when we talk about the Chinese technology. They have hoovered up all the good stuff and there is nothing left of worth for them to take. This has resulted in the Chinese doing proper R&D. It makes sense as they want to be the leaders in this area, for internal reasons on controlling their people and because it makes money, real other countries type of money.

Too often people view the Chinese through a Western lens. There is a very good article in the Naval Review from an ex Lt Cdr who now works in China. He explains how they think and how they react to world events. Well worth a read and no I will not cut and paste it - join the naval review, it is a good investment.

In this case China is sneaking ahead int his area and America is not, in fact it is struggling. Google is a company struggling in the change from nibble and new to steady and reliable. It cancels product lines on whim and doesn't want to do the long hard work in product maintenance. Amazon isn't sure if it wants to sell stuff or run data centres, with both requiring mega data trawls to work. Apple is trying but it needs the cheap production lines of SE Asia to turn a profit.
Ideas that Chinese companies only provide cheap labour are obsolete. Here's an EU study to provide context.
IRI - The 2018 EU Industrial R&D I
The top 2500 companies in the world in terms of spending on R&D are based in the follow countries or regions:
  1. US 778
  2. EU 577
  3. China 438
  4. Japan 339
  5. Rest of the world 368
Annual increase in R&D expenditure is growing a the following rates:
  1. China 20.0%
  2. US 9.0%
  3. Japan 5.8%
  4. EU 5.5%
In other words, R&D spending in China is now third in the world, and it is growing more than twice the rate anywhere else.

The same study (see the PDF report in the page at the above link, page 56) puts Huawei as being the 5th largest spender on R&D in the world. The global list in order is:
  1. Samsung
  2. Alphabet (Google)
  3. Volkswagen
  4. Microsoft
  5. Huawei
The next table in the study says they have risen 200 spots in the ranking since 2004.

One of the things the US is demanding in their current round of trade negotiations with China is for China to bin the "Made in China 2025", which centres around China becoming the global leader in a wide range of advanced technologies. Germany has an "Industry 4.0" project which is broadly similar, so what China is doing is not unique. However, the Chinese project has the Americans upset because it overlaps with a number of areas the Americans have staked out for themselves.

With regards to 5G, Chinese companies are estimated to control more than a third of the essential patents relating to 5G. The South Koreans are second with a quarter of them. China in pole position for 5G era with a third of key patents
Note by the way that Huawei were already the technology leaders in 4G, and have increased their share with 5G. Also notice how many major patent holders are Chinese, while the US is only a minor player. The article notes that even if Huawei is completely shut out of the US, they own so much of the intellectual property surrounding 5G that they will still collect hefty royalties on any 5G implementation in the US by other companies through technology licences.



China is focusing on R&D and advanced technology because wages have risen rapidly in China over the past few decades and they cannot continue to rely on being a low cost contract manufacturer as they were in the past. Companies looking for cheap labour, including Chinese companies, are already going to places like Vietnam and Indonesia. China meanwhile is moving into the middle income bracket, like South Korea has.

China's planned path of development follows in the footsteps of Japan and South Korea. Those old enough will remember the time when "made in Japan" was synonymous with "cheap junk". That didn't last.
 
As simple Google search shows how wrong you are.

China is a producer of cheap hardware, not innovative software (their stuff's mostly based on stolen intellectual property, a lot from the US & UK).

They used to say that about the Japanese.

Edit - terminal beat me to it.
 
Despite the Orange Man Bad rhetoric, the UK quickly knelt to kiss his ring.

Do you think their threats were less or more objectionable than the US ones?
The Chinese threat was aimed specifically at the UK. Trumpet's was "to whom it may concern".
Both are unacceptable.
As is using Huawaei equipment in critical networks.
 
The Chinese threat was aimed specifically at the UK. Trumpet's was "to whom it may concern".
Both are unacceptable.
As is using Huawaei equipment in critical networks.
Have we established the threat conclusively, or are we bowing to US protectionist pressure?

I would imagine the nuance of these things would be important to fully understand if we are to creep out from behind the EU's petticoats and participate on the world stage in our own right.
 
Have we established the threat conclusively, or are we bowing to US protectionist pressure?

I would imagine the nuance of these things would be important to fully understand if we are to creep out from behind the EU's petticoats and participate on the world stage in our own right.
IIRC the Italians found some holes in Huawei stuff's security, told Huawei who said they'd fix them, then didn't.
Whether nefarious or negligent, it's not what is wanted for critical tasks.
 
IIRC the Italians found some holes in Huawei stuff's security, told Huawei who said they'd fix them, then didn't.
Whether nefarious or negligent, it's not what is wanted for critical tasks.

"In a statement, Vodafone said: "The issues in Italy identified in the Bloomberg story were all resolved and date back to 2011 and 2012.

"The 'backdoor' that Bloomberg refers to is Telnet, which is a protocol that is commonly used by many vendors in the industry for performing diagnostic functions. It would not have been accessible from the internet.

"Bloomberg is incorrect in saying that this 'could have given Huawei unauthorised access to the carrier's fixed-line network in Italy'.

"In addition, we have no evidence of any unauthorised access. This was nothing more than a failure to remove a diagnostic function after development.

"The issues were identified by independent security testing, initiated by Vodafone as part of our routine security measures, and fixed at the time by Huawei."

A Huawei spokesperson said: 'We were made aware of historical vulnerabilities in 2011 and 2012 and they were addressed at the time.

"Software vulnerabilities are an industry-wide challenge. Like every ICT [information and communications technology] vendor, we have a well-established public notification and patching process, and when a vulnerability is identified, we work closely with our partners to take the appropriate corrective action."
 
Pure coincidence because she wants the best for Britain. Yeah, right.

'Amber Rudd has surprised Westminster by praising Huawei, the Chinese tech giant that has been advised by her brother’s PR firm.

'Friends of the Pensions Secretary say her defence of the controversial company ‘had absolutely nothing’ to do with the fact that Huawei has been a client of Finsbury, the PR business founded by her wealthy brother Roland.'


Amber Rudd surprises Westminster as she defends Chinese tech giant Huawei | Daily Mail Online
 
Western world lost its edge in the telecom world at the start of the century when people were falling over themselves to offshore predominantly to China. That started the race to the bottom. The West thought it would maintain an edge through keeping R&D, design etc in their own countries. Who thought that would be a winner needs their collective heads seen too.

In a game of numbers we can't win on paper. The Chinese have too many students going through university and engineering schools compared to us. They're also in it for the long term. They send their best students to universities in the West where they are masters of soaking up knowledge.

That said not all they produce in China is of the quality we have in the west. They still have an inherent flaw in that just good enough is sufficient. End result is that a lot of their kit is still shit and that includes Huawei. At home I have a fibre optic link installed by the national operator. The ONU is made by ZTE. Its a direct rip off of a unit made by a company owned by a friend of mine. It's a Chinese copy right down to a coupe of faults. Does the national operator give a flying f..k, not likely because it's cheaper. Of course its cheaper, if you don't have to pay for the R&D then its going to be cheaper. The gateway I was provided was from Huawei. I'd have to try really hard to find one that's worse. That was binned with the derision it deserved.

While ago I was asked to join a panel at an industry meeting on solar cell technology. I was the novelty act. The captains of industry were all yakking on about how they were going to make shed loads of cash selling production machinery to the Chinese. I stood up and told them they were idiots and just how long did they think that business model would last. There was a short pause before the laughter started. How could the idiot be so stupid and normal jogging commenced. They ain't laughing now, every single company at that meeting no longer exists. The Chinese took delivery of what they were shipped and cloned the lot.

At the moment the current Chinese philosophy is to use the capital they have gained to buy companies in the West. They send out delegations on what are essentially shopping expeditions. Our governments seem only too happy to welcome them in the name of international relations. Oh dear, its not going to end well. In some countries I've been sent to its not just been tech but minerals. Anybody want to take a guess as to how much of Africa is essentially owned by China. Next targets there I suspect are South Africa and Zimbabwe.

Huawei and 5G is just the tip of the iceberg and it's only because the orange one has finally asked a few questions that some people are finally waking up to the reality of what has been going on for a long time.
 

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