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UK sold plutonium to Israel in 60s

#5
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4789832.stm

Using Freedom of Information, Newsnight has obtained top secret papers. They show Foreign Minister Kim Howells misled the IAEA and that Britain made not one, but hundreds of secret shipments of nuclear materials to Israel.
So the UK violated IAEA rules, violated NPT. So why now Iran should be punished?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4791360.stm

Statement from the Foreign Office - 9th March 2006

"We reject any suggestion that Dr Howells has misled the IAEA, or Sir Menzies Campbell when he wrote to him last year.

We are not aware of any request from the IAEA for information regarding any supplies of plutonium, uranium or lithium. We will of course respond to any request the IAEA makes in this regard..."
Btw, has Russia right to sell Plutonium to Iran? They would pay good money.
 
#6
Whoopy do. If we hadn't there wouldn't be an Israel now. It would be Palestine & the Holocaust would have been completed on Hitlers behalf.
 
#7
No the Palestinians WANT peace...Dont you Trust ANYTHING the BBC says?... :roll:




Glad we did. Rather sell nukes to Israel than Nerve Gas to Saddams-iraq like a certain administration did a while ago
 
#8
Un-Friendly-Fire said:
No the Palestinians WANT peace...Dont you Trust ANYTHING the BBC says?... :roll:




Glad we did. Rather sell nukes to Israel than Nerve Gas to Saddams-iraq like a certain administration did a while ago
And I am the new Pope :lol:
 
#9
KGB_resident said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4789832.stm

Using Freedom of Information, Newsnight has obtained top secret papers. They show Foreign Minister Kim Howells misled the IAEA and that Britain made not one, but hundreds of secret shipments of nuclear materials to Israel.
So the UK violated IAEA rules, violated NPT. So why now Iran should be punished?
Er - before we go any further, could I point out that it is rather difficult to violate a treaty before that treaty is signed? NPT came into being in 1968, and all of the events Newsnight covered took place before that date.

The UK therefore didn't violate the NPT. Iran, on the other hand...


As for misleading the IAEA, I'd suggest that the BBC is in fact being slightly misleading here. The original story concerned the sale of heavy water (via Norway) in 1958. This later story concerns events in 1966. Kim Howells was responding to the original Newsnight story about the heavy water. His information almost certainly came from the 1958 file. The events of 1966 would be in another file (or files) , and it is very likely that this file was not consulted, since it didn't deal with the matter Howells was called to comment upon.

While it could (legimitately) be said that the government should have revisited the whole issue of supplying nuclear-related material to Israel, there's no need to suppose that they thought it necessary to review anything other than the details of what had happened with the sale of heavy water.

It should be pointed out that it would be extremely easy for the government to remove any embarassing papers from the files by the expedient of removing the files. Had they wished to cover things up, someone from the FCO would have recalled the files from the PRO, ostensibly to study them further, and then to hang on to them.

I know from experience that some very short files on some less-than interesting material can be recalled into Whitehall and stay there for months or even years - all perfectly legitimately and without any intention of a cover up (at least, I doubt that files on the administrative arrangmenets for the RAF in March-August 1918 have any shocking revelations that will undermine the government...)

By the by, I'd also be more inclined to believe that something truly shocking was going on if Michael Crick wasn't the reporter involved.
 
#11
Sergei, Sergei, Sergei Harold Wilson sold Uncle Joe Rolls Royce Nene Jet engines when they where the worlds most powerful areo engine.
But I suppose he didn't know Uncle Joe would place them in MIG 15, or did he ?
john
Mind you whoever authorised selling plutonium does have much to answer for.
 
#12
Archimedes said:
KGB_resident said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4789832.stm

Using Freedom of Information, Newsnight has obtained top secret papers. They show Foreign Minister Kim Howells misled the IAEA and that Britain made not one, but hundreds of secret shipments of nuclear materials to Israel.
So the UK violated IAEA rules, violated NPT. So why now Iran should be punished?
Er - before we go any further, could I point out that it is rather difficult to violate a treaty before that treaty is signed? NPT came into being in 1968, and all of the events Newsnight covered took place before that date.
Of course, you are right. Thank you for correction. Indeed the UK hadn't violated NPT. However, Plutonium is not a heavy water. Plutonium is used to make nuclear bombs. So the UK sold it to Israel secretly being aware of its possible usage.

NPT was not elaborated in one day. It was a process.

http://www10.antenna.nl/wise/index.html?http://www10.antenna.nl/wise/beyondbomb/1-1.html

In 1965, non-proliferation became the dominant agenda item at the Eighteen Nations Disarmament Committee (ENDC).
Can one describe a position of a country moral if it negotiates a treaty and in the same time secretly makes actions that contradicts it?

Archimedes said:
The UK therefore didn't violate the NPT. Iran, on the other hand...
at least formally doesn't violate it too. If you prefer a formal approach then it should be applied to any country.

There is another side of this story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4789832.stm

Tony Benn became Minister of Technology in 1966 while the plutonium deal was going through. The nuclear industry was part of his "white heat of technology" brief but no one told him that we were exporting atomic energy materials to Israel.

"I'm not only surprised, I'm shocked," he says, adding that neither he nor his predecessor Frank Cousins, who was a member of CND, agreed to the sales.
Does it mean that there are two governments in the UK? One is on the surface and another one - secret but real and powerful?
 
F

fozzy

Guest
#13
KGB_resident said:
Does it mean that there are two governments in the UK? One is on the surface and another one - secret but real and powerful?
Yes - its called the Civil Service. See any episode of Yes Minister/Prime Minister for more details.
 
#14
Perevodchik said:
Fcuk off Sergei. Yet another cheap attemt to smear the West and make the Soviet Bloc look clever.
Grow up and move with the times!
Dear Perevodchik!

Absolutely disagree. Plutonium is not cheap at all. It is very expensive. Even Bill Gates can't buy even few milligr. of Plutonium.

jonwilly said:
Sergei, Sergei, Sergei Harold Wilson sold Uncle Joe Rolls Royce Nene Jet engines when they where the worlds most powerful areo engine.
But I suppose he didn't know Uncle Joe would place them in MIG 15, or did he ?
john
Mind you whoever authorised selling plutonium does have much to answer for.
Johnie, Johnie, Johnie!

I recall the better example. Toshiba sold unique machine to Soviet Union. So, screws of Soviet submarines became very silent. There was a big fuss about it. I remember how Toshiba's TV-sets were demonstratively crushed in USA.

On serious note, now it is absolutely clear that the UK helped Israel to create nuclear weapons. So Iranians could speak about double standards. Though, who cares?

fozzy said:
KGB_resident said:
Does it mean that there are two governments in the UK? One is on the surface and another one - secret but real and powerful?
Yes - its called the Civil Service. See any episode of Yes Minister/Prime Minister for more details.
Such a pity that this show is unavailable on Russian TV channels. Though I understand reasons. Live reports from meetings of Russian government are no doubt more humorous.
 
#15
KGB_resident said:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3226162,00.html

BBC reveals that Britain sold plutonium knowing it would be used for nuclear weapons.
And I always thought that Israel hijacked a French boat carrying the stuff in the '60s!!! One lives and learns I suppose!!! If Britain, did sell plutonium to Israel in the '60s, many thanks!!! At least they have never said that they would wipe any nation off the face of the earth with it!!!
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#16
If the UK did - and I never believe things from the BBC without independent verification nowadays - then good for us! At least the it was deliberate, unlike the Canadians being solely responsible for the Indian atomic bomb by supplying them with a 'peaceful uses only' reactor :)
 
#17
KGB_resident said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4789832.stm

Using Freedom of Information, Newsnight has obtained top secret papers. They show Foreign Minister Kim Howells misled the IAEA and that Britain made not one, but hundreds of secret shipments of nuclear materials to Israel.
So the UK violated IAEA rules, violated NPT. So why now Iran should be punished?
The NPT went into affect on March 5, 1970. , if the transfer happened in the 60's the UK has not broken the NPT.
 
#18
Perevodchik said:
Fcuk off Sergei. Yet another cheap attemt to smear the West and make the Soviet Bloc look clever.
Grow up and move with the times!
I have to agree with Perevodchik here, and i'm failing to see your point sergei. Because of a possible double standard, are you suggesting that Iran should be supplied with nuclear materials? This isnt the same world as the one which existed during the cold war - what has something that alegedly happened 40 odd years ago got to do with supplying Iran with uranium?
 
#19
KGB_resident said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4789832.stm

Using Freedom of Information, Newsnight has obtained top secret papers. They show Foreign Minister Kim Howells misled the IAEA and that Britain made not one, but hundreds of secret shipments of nuclear materials to Israel.
So the UK violated IAEA rules, violated NPT. So why now Iran should be punished?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4791360.stm

Statement from the Foreign Office - 9th March 2006

"We reject any suggestion that Dr Howells has misled the IAEA, or Sir Menzies Campbell when he wrote to him last year.

We are not aware of any request from the IAEA for information regarding any supplies of plutonium, uranium or lithium. We will of course respond to any request the IAEA makes in this regard..."
Btw, has Russia right to sell Plutonium to Iran? They would pay good money.
The reason that most of the world don't want Iran to have nukes is that they have the destruction of Isreal as a de facto state policy. They also have a history of sponsoring terrorism against their neighbours and the West. Compare and contrast to Isreal, which is a democracy, does not have the destruction of it's neighbours as a goal, and does not sponsor terrorism.
 
#20
Of course if Iran was a democracy then noone would have a problem with them going nuclear....bollocks, they'd find some other pretext.

This is purely about the US not wanting its hegemony in the Middle East eroded, all this nonsense about Israel under threat is just a figleaf.
 

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