UK Muslims more loyal than most

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Fallschirmmongsturm, Apr 17, 2007.

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  1. Yes, all we've heard has been from the extremists

  2. Dunno, possibly. These things are difficult to gauge...

  3. B0ll0cks ! The trendy-wendies are at it again

  1. Looking forward to reading this report...

    Fifty-seven per cent of the Muslims polled said they identified strongly with their country, compared with 48% of the general public. Muslims were also more likely to express confidence in the police (78% to 69%), national government (64% to 36%), the justice system (67% to 55%) and elections (73% to 60%). Nearly three-quarters of the Muslims said they felt loyal to the UK, and 82% said they respected other religions.

    BBC News - UK

    And it's about time somebody covered the vast majority of Muslims who are tired of having to justify their loyalty because of the actions of a few nutters.
  2. No doubt a latter day Churchill will soon pipe up with the "Lies, damned lies . . . ." quote

  3. I have difficulty understanding how any rational mind can consider Islam and democracy to be truly compatable. The Koran clearly dictates how a nation should be run... unlike the Bible or Torah. Of the dozens of Muslim nations in the world, none are a democracy... at best they are an oligarchy disguised by "free" elections.

    Just the .02 cents of a old grunt of course...
  4. Or even Disraeli.
  5. Khyros, the Qu'ran gives guidelines as to how Muslims should behave, but where does it describe the kind of structure to do it ? Can you quote the Surah please?

    None are a democracy because we don't allow them to become democracies, primarily because we fear the result. For example, Hamas in the Occupied Territories. They were legitimately elected by the people, but because we don't care for them, have tried to kill off the democratic experiment. Iran, despite a democratic structure, but because of the Council of Guardians shows that religion quickly becomes a source of disparagement. But I've a feeling that we in the West will become a spectator to that evolutionary cycle.

    But this is not about the ME, it's about Blighty !
  6. Didn't the bible suggest ". . . an eye for an eye", "if thine eye offend thee . . . ", and a host of other grisly quotes we no longer take literally.

    Yes, some muslims also take their quotes just as literally - the majority do not.

    I don't accept Your point about muslims and oligarchy
  7. We are still stuck with a problem of younger British Muslims feeling more at home with Quran's interpreation of personal and group behaviours. What causes further strain is that the parents of these kids appear to be confused because they are probably less dogmatic and far less diosposed to Salafi/Wahabi interpretations of the Quran than their kids. The politicisation of Islam is where we should be putting some serious IO effort. That said, we are stuck with some uncomfortable issues and they centre on the low expectations of British Muslim Youth and how they are connecting with agitporn on extreme Jihadi websites rather than with Britishness. As to the poll lets face it pollsters will probably find it easier to get answers out of individuals disposed to talking to them i.e. moderate Muslims. Whatever a moderate Muslim is!
  8. I say NO religious writings tell us how to run our countrys but that the religous zealots from the ass end of the stan too the rich pastures of the bible belt, tell us how to interpret these writings.

    They turning every passage of tolerance into some twisted hate filled retoric.

    I wish that the both the 'Trendie Wendies' and the 'MY God is Better than your God Extremist freaks' would both go and find a place to play in the moon would be a good start for these o2 thiefs.

    edited too add

    wish more people would think like this
  9. Interesting essay below... perhaps I stand corrected on the extent to which the Koran dictates nation building. Anyhoo... I am a rather biased person as much of my time in service was over in the Middle East and I witnessed the savagery that occurs there in the name of Islam. Perhaps when the religion goes through a schism and reformation as Christianity does this will calm down a bit. Suspect the Shiite/Sunni conflict is just the first stage of such an occurance but it definately will not be a short termed event and certainly will be just as bloody and destructive as the wars between Protestants and Catholics had been.

    An Overview of the Islamic System

    The Last Messenger of Allah established a system of life in which He used to rule or judge people according to the Book revealed to him [5:48-49, 4:105, 6:114]. And this was not new only to him. In fact, all the previous Messengers of Allah also established systems of life during their time whereby they ruled or judged according to the Books revealed to them [5:44-47, 2:213]. Indeed, any who does not rule or judge according to Allah’s Revelation is Kaafir [5:44], Zalim [5:45] and Fasiq [5:47], according to the Quran. The principle of ruling or judging by the Book is the foundation of an Islamic System. No system can be called Islamic unless all the judgments and rulings therein are according to the Book, Al-Quran, the last of the Revealed Books that is the Watcher over all the old Scriptures and guards the Truth in them [5:48].

    Al-Hukm or the Judgment or the Rule or the Command belongs to none but Allah alone [6:57, 6:62, 12:40, 12:67, 28:70, 28:80, 40:12, 42:10]. He does not take anyone as partner in His Hukm [18:26]. He is Khair-ul-Hakimeen [7:87, 10:109, 12:80] and Ahkam-ul-Hakimeen [11:45, 95:8]. In an Islamic System, all the so-called rulers or judges are obligated to rule and judge as per Allah’s Rule and Judgment. Sunnah or the Way of the Prophet [s.a.] is not part of Al-Hukm, since Allah does not take any partners in His Hukm [18:26]. However, in Sunnah of the Prophet [s.a.], guidance may be sought for ways to implement Al-Hukm, or for by-laws based upon Al-Hukm. But the ways to implement or enforce Al-Hukm as well as by-laws based upon it, are not as unchangeable as is Al-Hukm itself. The ways and by-laws may be altered according to the suitability of time and circumstances but Al-Hukm itself cannot be changed in any circumstances.

    The obedience to Allah [Aatee-u-Allah] is the basis of an Islamic System. But Allah is Invisible. He comprehends all vision but no vision comprehends Him [6:103, 7:143]. He does not come face to face with people to give them His Laws and Commands. All of His Commands for the people are in the Book revealed by Him. Obedience to Allah means conformity to His Laws or abidance by His Commands which are in His Revealed Book, Al-Quran. His Commands or Laws do not change like the whim of a despot or caprice of a king. No one can change His Laws. Even, He Himself does not change His Laws, although He is all powerful to do so [10:64, 30:30, 33:62, 35:43, 48:23, 6:34, 6:115, 18:27].

    Allah’s Laws and Commands, in the Quran, cannot implement or enforce themselves upon people, on their own. Moreover, each individual may interpret these Laws and Commands in his own way and abide by them according to his own right. So, there is a need for one Central Authority and his obedience [Aatee-ur-Rasool]. The first Central Authority was Muhammad [a.s.], the Messenger of Allah. Hence, obedience to the Messenger was also necessary, which was, in effect the obedience to Allah by abidance by His Book as interpreted and enforced by the Central Authority [4:80].

    Muhammad [a.s.] was mortal and could not live forever [3:144]. But this did not mean the end of the Islamic System. The Central Authority, after his death, would transfer from him to his Khalifa, the Successor. Moreover, as the expanse of the Islamic System will increase, it would become impossible for the single human Authority to be present at all places at all times to make judgments, rulings or implement or enforce the Law. There would become a need for sub-authorities or subordinates, hence, the obedience to Ol-il-Amr.

    Unless there is one single Islamic Central Authority, the dream of implementing Islam as a System, as an alternative to secular democracy or other systems, can never be realized. Without a Central Authority, Islam may exist, as it is today, like a downgraded ritualistic religion, in which every individual or sect may keep on living on the vacuous wish of pleasing Allah or rendering Him worship in its own way and in its own right but it can never become a truly Islamic System of life to bring forth its promised benefits. And that means the transfer of sovereignty from individual states, as they exist today, to the Central Authority which itself would work under the Ultimate Sovereignty of Allah, i.e. His Book. Moreover, this also means the end of the authority of the Ullema or the Muftis of today and the Imams of the past. The interpretation of the Laws and the formulation of by-laws will be done by the Central Authority alone, within the bounds of the Quran. There will be no sects, no religious or political parties, not even an opposition party or Hizb-e-Ikhtilaf within the Islamic System.

    All the affairs shall be decided by mutual consultation, in the light of the Quran. If there is any disagreement among the representatives on any matter, the judgment thereof will be referred to Allah [42:10] i.e. His Book. This referral will be through the sub-authorities or the central authority for the final verdict [4:59], which will make the judgment according to Allah’s Book [5:48].

    Derived from two ancient Greek words demos (the people) and kratos (strength), Democracy is a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them. Then, the numerical majority of the elected representatives can make laws, rules or decisions binding on the whole group. While making laws and rules, these elected representatives do not have any objective standards, unprejudiced touchstones, absolute criteria or bounds of any permanent values to take into account. The difference between such a system and the Islamic System is that the law-making in the latter is based upon the objective standards and the absolute criteria given in the Quran and do not go against the Permanent Values enshrined therein.

    Before anyone becomes a believer in such a system, He has full choice whether he wants to become a believer or not [18:29]. There is no compulsion whatsoever upon him to become a member of the Muslim community [2:256]. But once he becomes a member of the Muslim community, he is obligated to abide by its Laws. The authority would make sure that he does so. He cannot be left with that he abides by some laws that he likes and violates others that he dislikes. No community, no nation and no country would allow that.
  10. Where did Your essay come from Khyros?

  11. I cannot agree more! I too think that the schism and reformation is happening and that is the real problem that we have rightly or wrongly as that is a differnt argument, intervended! Been drawn into! and our trying to control! Regulate Stop the savage destruction! certainly isnt working.

    I do belive that like most forms of extremism that many grow out of it, the issues i belive is how we deal with these growing pains of the young.

    We have to engage as the best way to put out the fire of the religious zealot is educating people to be tolerent. This tolerance must cut both ways, and is much harder to do.

    I have to realy work hard some times not too bite and react in a kneejerk reaction to what i see and hear, and truthfully its very hard not to just give up and say sod this lets just deport em all! bomb em back into the stone age!
  12. Came across it here...

    Was looking to referance the verses that I remembered reading in my copy of the Koran (gifted to me by a fellow I helped train in that part of the world who was concerned about my eternal fate...)
  13. Just had a brief visit there and, as I do with every website I visit, looked around it to find out the contributers.

    No-one lays claim to the website as a whole or any of the essays - therefore I could not trust it to reflect any current Islamic teaching.

    I haven't really looked at this website yet but it does give the names of the authors whos essays it publlishes
  14. Popping down to the local mosque and asking some polite and genuine questions normally gets the best response. You'll most likely find yourself a very welcome guest and have all your questions answered by real life muslims.

    Alternatively, you can sit at home, surf the net, read the scaremongering and endless drivel being pumped out to one agenda or another - and end up none the wiser.

    Of course, the former option is taken by those with an open mind willing to learn. The latter is taken by those whose minds are often already set, and they're just looking for confirmation of their stance or ammunition to condemn.
  15. RP578

    RP578 LE Book Reviewer

    It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that the majority of muslims are surportive of the police and establishment in general. After all they are mostly from ethnic communities that are generally conservative minded about many social issues including law and order.