UK minister to condemn Guantanamo

#1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5340104.stm


A Cabinet minister is due to denounce Guantanamo Bay as a "shocking affront to the principles of democracy", it has emerged.
The Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, is expected to voice the most outspoken criticism of US terror policy yet made by a senior minister.

He will accuse the US of "deliberately seeking to put the detainees beyond the reach of the law in Guantanamo Bay"

He will make the comments in a speech in Sydney, Australia, on Wednesday.
Yeah , whatever.
 
#2
PartTimePongo said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5340104.stm


A Cabinet minister is due to denounce Guantanamo Bay as a "shocking affront to the principles of democracy", it has emerged.
The Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, is expected to voice the most outspoken criticism of US terror policy yet made by a senior minister.

He will accuse the US of "deliberately seeking to put the detainees beyond the reach of the law in Guantanamo Bay"

He will make the comments in a speech in Sydney, Australia, on Wednesday.
Yeah , whatever.
oh, like not being elected, but being in the executive? (cabinet)

mind you, I do see his point, we seem to make do with Paddington Nick
 
#3
Falconer wants to worry more about those running around our streets dtonating bombs than the ones who are safely tucked away where they can kill no more innocents.

Cnut!
 
#4
Dear Concerned Citizen,

Thank you for your recent letter roundly criticizing
our treatment of the Taliban and Al Quaeda detainees
currently being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Our administration takes these matters seriously and
your opinion was heard loud and clear here in
Washington.
You'll be pleased to learn that, thanks to the
concerns of citizens like yourself, we are creating a
new division of the Terrorist Retraining Program,to be
called the "Liberals Accept Responsibility for
Killers" program, or LARK for short.

In accordance with the guidelines of this new program,
we have decided to place one terrorist under your
personal care. Your personal detainee has been
selected and scheduled for transportation under
heavily armed guard to your residence next Monday.

Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him
Ahmed) is to be cared for pursuant to the standards
you personally demanded in your letter of complaint.
It will likely be necessary for you to hire some
assistant caretakers.

We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your
standards of care for Ahmed are Commensurate with
those you so strongly recommended in your letter.

Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent,
we hope that your sensitivity to what you described as
his "attitudinal problem" will help him overcome these
character flaws. Perhaps you are correct in
describing these problems as mere cultural
differences. We understand that you plan to offer
counseling and home schooling.

Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in
hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with
such simple items as a pencil or nail clippers. We
advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these
skills at your next yoga group. He is also expert at
making a wide variety of explosive devices from common
household products, so you may wish to keep those
items locked up, unless (in your opinion) this might
offend him.

Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or your
daughters (except sexually), since he views females as
a subhuman form of property. This is a particularly
sensitive subject for him and he has been known to
show violent tendencies around women who fail to
comply with the new dress code that he will recommend
as more appropriate attire.

I'm sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered
by the burka -- over time.

Just remember that it is all part of "respecting his
culture and his religious beliefs" -- wasn't that how
you put it?

Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it
when folks like you keep us informed of the proper way
to do our job. You take good care of Ahmed - and
remember..we'll be watching.

Good luck!


Cordially, your friend,
Don Rumsfeld
 
#5
How very brave of a minister of HMG to criticize Gitmo almost five years after it opened and just after inmates are granted Geneva convetion rights by the US government!


The UK estavblishment generally should take note that, whilst no-one likes a bully, they at least fear or even respect him. Nobody has anything other than the utmost contempt for the bully's pathetic hangers-on. On the world stage, we comport ourselves like Jabba's little mate, nothing more.
 
#6
AndyPipkin said:
How very brave of a minister of HMG to criticize Gitmo almost five years after it opened and just after inmates are granted Geneva convetion rights by the US government!


The UK estavblishment generally should take note that, whilst no-one likes a bully, they at least fear or even respect him. Nobody has anything other than the utmost contempt for the bully's pathetic hangers-on. On the world stage, we comport ourselves like Jabba's little mate, nothing more.
Yep, absolutely correct. *sigh* just relaxing here in St. Louis after stoning the fcuk out of a female coworker--her burka showed a bit of ankle, we had to kill her. Gotta love being a bully.

I've got a long weekend coming up, think I'll pop over to Mom's and honor-kill her for divorcing Dad.
 
#7
Cynical look on........
Oh really............What timing!
Not any coincidences at all,shurely (apologies to Private Eye)
A good day to bury ........................Falconer!
Cynical look off..........
 
#8
Cynical look on........
Oh really............What timing!
Not any coincidences at all,shurely (apologies to Private Eye)
A good day to bury ........................Falconer!
Cynical look off..........
 
#9
Yank_Lurker said:
AndyPipkin said:
How very brave of a minister of HMG to criticize Gitmo almost five years after it opened and just after inmates are granted Geneva convetion rights by the US government!


The UK estavblishment generally should take note that, whilst no-one likes a bully, they at least fear or even respect him. Nobody has anything other than the utmost contempt for the bully's pathetic hangers-on. On the world stage, we comport ourselves like Jabba's little mate, nothing more.
Yep, absolutely correct. *sigh* just relaxing here in St. Louis after stoning the fcuk out of a female coworker--her burka showed a bit of ankle, we had to kill her. Gotta love being a bully.

I've got a long weekend coming up, think I'll pop over to Mom's and honor-kill her for divorcing Dad.
God, I just love hyperbole, and apparently so do you, seeing as you are almost constantly using it.
 
#10
Drago_Drake said:
Yank_Lurker said:
AndyPipkin said:
How very brave of a minister of HMG to criticize Gitmo almost five years after it opened and just after inmates are granted Geneva convetion rights by the US government!


The UK estavblishment generally should take note that, whilst no-one likes a bully, they at least fear or even respect him. Nobody has anything other than the utmost contempt for the bully's pathetic hangers-on. On the world stage, we comport ourselves like Jabba's little mate, nothing more.
Yep, absolutely correct. *sigh* just relaxing here in St. Louis after stoning the fcuk out of a female coworker--her burka showed a bit of ankle, we had to kill her. Gotta love being a bully.

I've got a long weekend coming up, think I'll pop over to Mom's and honor-kill her for divorcing Dad.
God, I just love hyperbole, and apparently so do you, seeing as you are almost constantly using it.
Yes I quite enjoy it, I see so much of it here in ARRSE where my country gets accused of being a "bully" for penning up a bunch of savages who in fact do get their jollies by stoning women, extracting their fingernails for wearing polish, blowing up ancient world heritage sites, and in general behaving like the monstrous fcuks that they are. Give me a fcuking break, already. They're lucky they weren't hung on the spot for being illegal combatants and general wastes of human semen.
 
#11
Yank_Lurker said:
Drago_Drake said:
Yank_Lurker said:
AndyPipkin said:
How very brave of a minister of HMG to criticize Gitmo almost five years after it opened and just after inmates are granted Geneva convetion rights by the US government!


The UK estavblishment generally should take note that, whilst no-one likes a bully, they at least fear or even respect him. Nobody has anything other than the utmost contempt for the bully's pathetic hangers-on. On the world stage, we comport ourselves like Jabba's little mate, nothing more.
Yep, absolutely correct. *sigh* just relaxing here in St. Louis after stoning the fcuk out of a female coworker--her burka showed a bit of ankle, we had to kill her. Gotta love being a bully.

I've got a long weekend coming up, think I'll pop over to Mom's and honor-kill her for divorcing Dad.
God, I just love hyperbole, and apparently so do you, seeing as you are almost constantly using it.
Yes I quite enjoy it, I see so much of it here in ARRSE where my country gets accused of being a "bully" for penning up a bunch of savages who in fact do get their jollies by stoning women, extracting their fingernails for wearing polish, blowing up ancient world heritage sites, and in general behaving like the monstrous fcuks that they are. Give me a fcuking break, already. They're lucky they weren't hung on the spot for being illegal combatants and general wastes of human semen.
Well, ignoring for the moment, the fact that its prooven there are quite a few people in gitmo who arnt terrorists.

The way the US is acting is a dictonary definition of a Bully. Its doing whatever it wants, imposing its will on (weaker) others quite often by force (of one sort or another), and ignoring the international community at large. If its doing it for the right or wrong reasons doesnt change the fact its still acting like a bully.

Now, one of the things I always find so interesting is often people will cite and condemn barbaric acts that the Arabians partake of, and then in the same breath attempt justify western acts of barbarism (and trust me, at times I can be one of those people, but then I actually stop and consider the issue rationally). Its a two way street old chap, you cant preach from the moral high ground if your doing the same stuff. The whole point of this is to 'save' civilisation, well in that case shouldnt we be estoling our morals and values and not eroding them by commiting horrific acts of our own.

Gitmo is not only against international law, but also US law. And as so many great men have paraphrased themselves before, if you have to break the laws in order to protect them, then your doing something wrong.
 
#12
You save civilization by killing barbarians, and exacting a terrible price for barbaric acts. You think the Romans spread Hellenistic civilization throughout Europe and the Mediterranean by letting miscreants walk???
 
#13
Yank_Lurker said:
You save civilization by killing barbarians, and exacting a terrible price for barbaric acts. You think the Romans spread Hellenistic civilization throughout Europe and the Mediterranean by letting miscreants walk???
The main difference being that the Romans didnt appareciate the farce that they were 'spreading' civilisation by commiting barbaric acts. And in any case we are all well aware that as civilised as Rome was they were still lacking in certain areas, much the same that we today are. But the difference is we are aware of that and do strive to rectify it where possible, this is perhaps a sign of civilisation.

And if were really going to get into the Romans, actually they were quite smart about spreading civilisation and where ever possible avoided using scortched earth tactics because it costed far more. They would induct the local nobility into Rome and attempt to take local customs and habits and adapt them to roman ones. It is very much part of there success, they avoided forcing the issue whereever possible. In spreading there civilisation, whereever possible they did attempt to adhere to its core values, however when push came to shove they were more than prepared to dismiss them in the 'short term' to 'protect' them in the 'long term'. This eventually became a problem for them, as slowly Rome started to look more and more like the very thing they were attempting to eradicate, in trying to do so and in comprimising there own values, they had ended up becoming what they hated most.

Personally, I find some concepts and practices of our 'modern' civilisation questionable and in some cases repugnant. However I am also aware that civilisation is unable to sustain itself as soon as it begins to ignore or dismiss its own important concepts in the name of protecting/preserving them. It is the historical sign of the death of a civilisation. Rome only fell to the barbarians once it began to ignore its own core values, and rotted from the inside out.

If we are truly superior, then we should not need to sacrifice the very propertys that make us superior in order to defeat them. By lowering ourselves to their level, we only erode ourselves.
 
#14
Time to play, "Name That Quote"!

Name the commander who issued these orders. Did the civilization which carried out these orders lose track of its guiding principles? Become barbaric itself by carrying out acts of ruthless efficacy? Discuss. :)

The Expedition which you are appointed to command is to be directed at the hostile tribes of XXXXXXXX, with their associates and adherents. The immediate objects are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements, and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops now in the ground and prevent their planting more.

I would recommend, that some post in the center of XXXXXXX, should be occupied with all expedition, with a sufficient quantity of provisions whence parties should be detached to lay waste all the settlements around, with instructions to do it in the most effectual manner, that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed.
 
#15
Yank_Lurker said:
Time to play, "Name That Quote"!

Name the commander who issued these orders. Did the civilization which carried out these orders lose track of its guiding principles? Become barbaric itself by carrying out acts of ruthless efficacy? Discuss. :)

The Expedition which you are appointed to command is to be directed at the hostile tribes of XXXXXXXX, with their associates and adherents. The immediate objects are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements, and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops now in the ground and prevent their planting more.

I would recommend, that some post in the center of XXXXXXX, should be occupied with all expedition, with a sufficient quantity of provisions whence parties should be detached to lay waste all the settlements around, with instructions to do it in the most effectual manner, that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed.
No idea. Taking a guess, I'd say possible the British Army in the Boer War dealing with the South African Boer 'issue'. Which regrettably turned very very nasty. And yes, Britain in that conflict lost sight of its guiding principles. Because you know its funny, and many Americans fail to realize this but it was Britain long before the US of A, that was estoling the virtues of liberty and the such, we were afteral the ones to abolish slavery and to ensure others did so, among many other noble tasks.

But there were horrible atrocities committed in the name of the Empire, the Boer concentration camps to name one. And it was a detriment to the Empire and the world as a whole. And I think you will find that at the time there was some very vocal opposition to it happening, who saw the wrong and injustice, this is a sign of civilization not only to have morals, values, principles, and not only that it attempts to protect them, but also when its citizens understand that sometimes protecting and spreading these virtues isn't worth the cost of sacrificing them.

You seem to be assuming I think the US is the only nation in the world to ever betray its principles and you would be mistaken (as it happens I think you have a victim complex about the US from your posting habits). But as they say, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Civilization will always falter nothing is perfect, but if it always falters at the same issues then it is something that must be addressed, failure to do so is unacceptable. And no one should ever be critiqued for attempting so.

The idea that we should protect our 'glorious, and righteous civilization' by betraying its very principles is a laudable logical fallacy. If truly we are superior, then it is by using these values that we will be able to defeat these 'barbarians', not by dismissing the very things that make us what we are, and not by sinking to the barbarians level.

Revenge as they say is the uncivilised mans substitute for Justice.
 
#16
And just as an aside, it would turn this into an actual debate and not a lecture by me, if you were to present an argument, and not these straw man tactics.

I too can post short quips that are wholey unsubstancial and make no significant point nor rebuttle. But then it would hardly be civilised debate, then would it.
 
#18
Drago_Drake,
Actually in point of fact, the issuing authority was Gen. George Washington, the officer ordered was Gen. John Sullivan, and he prosecuted his campaign against the Iroquois Nations under Joseph Brandt in 1779. The Iroquois by the way, had been armed and incited to war by the British, and had been conducting extremely savage attacks against American civilians along the frontier.

After Sullivan carried out his attacks, Indian warmaking capability in the upstate NY region was ended permanently.

We've somehow managed to stagger along, in our admittedly blemished civilization, after this.
 
#19
Yank_Lurker said:
Drago_Drake,
Actually in point of fact, the issuing authority was Gen. George Washington, the officer ordered was Gen. John Sullivan, and he prosecuted his campaign against the Iroquois Nations under Joseph Brandt in 1779. The Iroquois by the way, had been armed and incited to war by the British, and had been conducting extremely savage attacks against American civilians along the frontier.

After Sullivan carried out his attacks, Indian warmaking capability in the upstate NY region was ended permanently.

We've somehow managed to stagger along, in our admittedly blemished civilization, after this.
And? I fail to see your point. Because you got away with it once, your exempt?

I'm begining to wonder if this is actually worth my effort.
 
#20
Yank_Lurker said:
Drago_Drake said:
Yank_Lurker said:
AndyPipkin said:
How very brave of a minister of HMG to criticize Gitmo almost five years after it opened and just after inmates are granted Geneva convetion rights by the US government!


The UK estavblishment generally should take note that, whilst no-one likes a bully, they at least fear or even respect him. Nobody has anything other than the utmost contempt for the bully's pathetic hangers-on. On the world stage, we comport ourselves like Jabba's little mate, nothing more.
Yep, absolutely correct. *sigh* just relaxing here in St. Louis after stoning the fcuk out of a female coworker--her burka showed a bit of ankle, we had to kill her. Gotta love being a bully.

I've got a long weekend coming up, think I'll pop over to Mom's and honor-kill her for divorcing Dad.
God, I just love hyperbole, and apparently so do you, seeing as you are almost constantly using it.
Yes I quite enjoy it, I see so much of it here in ARRSE where my country gets accused of being a "bully" for penning up a bunch of savages who in fact do get their jollies by stoning women, extracting their fingernails for wearing polish, blowing up ancient world heritage sites, and in general behaving like the monstrous fcuks that they are. Give me a fcuking break, already. They're lucky they weren't hung on the spot for being illegal combatants and general wastes of human semen.
And just who armed, paid and trained the fcukers in the first place!

GO WATCH MICHAEL MOORE'S FILM ON 9/11 AND THEN HANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME!
 

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