Tight, I should imagine.Should have seen what the carriage & clearance trials for dropping Mirage F.1s were like...
Tight, I should imagine.Should have seen what the carriage & clearance trials for dropping Mirage F.1s were like...
Thread on something very significant, the Treasury Green Book is under review, see thread below I recommend scrolling through it
Short version, out with Value for Money and Benefit Cost Ratio and in with Place Based Stragegy.
![]()
Final Report of the 2020 Green Book Review
Budget 2020 announced that the government would review the Green Book to make sure that it did not hinder the levelling up agenda. This report marks the conclusion of the review.www.gov.uk
And the impact on defence is...?Thread on something very significant, the Treasury Green Book is under review, see thread below I recommend scrolling through it
Short version, out with Value for Money and Benefit Cost Ratio and in with Place Based Stragegy.
![]()
Final Report of the 2020 Green Book Review
Budget 2020 announced that the government would review the Green Book to make sure that it did not hinder the levelling up agenda. This report marks the conclusion of the review.www.gov.uk
And the impact on defence is...?
And current spending is not disfunctional and distorted?To distort spending in a completely different and dysfunctional way than it currently is
And current spending is not disfunctional and distorted?
Wholly because of Treasury and MoD direction we saw the costs of T45, T26 and CVF spiral, and we are having for buy unwanted patrol vessels because the agreed number of frigates weren’t ordered to keep yards running. Astute also faced similar cost inflation for the same reason.
The Navy is incredibly lucky it had so much political clout due to the shipbuilding constituencies.
Probably limited. Defence business cases often don’t focus on the Benefit Cost Ratio (BCR) because it is near impossible to quantify the benefit. Major equipment programs have always tended to be approved on the back of strategic objectives, rather than BCR. Take the carriers as an example; the entire program was justified on the back of the defence strategic objectives set out in SDR97, not on some nebulous guess at the unquantifiable benefit of the UK owning two carriers.And the impact on defence is...?
To distort spending in a completely different and dysfunctional way than it currently is
I just said that
The reasons you give for the spiralling costs are not exactly correct.
The cost of T45 per vessel was so high was because they severely cut the number of vessels built, 6 down from 12 which concentrated the devlopment costs onto fewer platforms rather than spreading the cost over a larger number.
The second failing was the political decision to go with the WR21s
The reason we ended up buying more Batch2 Rivers was, not due to spiralling costs but due to the delays in finalising the design (lot of two and fro-ing between Treasury and MoD on that one), the T26 build should have begun years ago except for these political and design delays. At the time the Labour Government had reached an agreement with BAE to ensure that they kept their workforce current. Without the B2s hundreds of trained shipbuilders would have been laid off and then hired/rehired and retrained years later, this would have added even more to the costs of the T26 build (as we saw what happened with in Barrow with the Astute Program). It was a make work scheme, to maintain skills and institutional knowledge. Not because insufficient frigates were ordered.
With CVF it was political dithering, the first design was chosen, then there was panic that it would cost too much at that size, so they lopped off a huge chunk at the bow and shortened her, the problem was this necessitated a significant redesign to address issues of stability, buoyancy, integrity aswell as having to reroute loads of systems to fit the new layout.
The next big issue to come along was the proposed change from the F35B to F35C, which halted the program, mid build resulted in another redesign, which cost around £250m, and when the Govt saw the costs of altering the now in build Carrier to a more conventional layout, made the Cameron Govt scream, and hurriedly start back pedaling.
With T26 it was a combination of design delays and panic over the costs, these are intimately tied together and can be blamed more on the political desire to be seen to be saving money and the need to alter things to meet that new restricted budget, than actual design issues - but tbf there were quite a few of those. (The reduction of T26 from 13 to 8 has thrown up a whole different set of political issues [Scottish Nationalist grievances that "We were promised 13 Frigates and we are only getting 8"
"Well no actually, you are getting 13 ships and 5 more, so that's 18 different ships, more tonnage, and more jobs spread over 2 sites instead of one. But you know, you can't make an obtuse Nationalists see reality" (waves at all the Brexit supporters)
So in the examples you cite, MoD and Navy is less to blame than the politicians in charge. The RAF, also ran into issues of political dithering interference and idiocy -Hello MRA4.
Now if you really want to have a go at the MoD, have a go at Land. Land is the most dysfunctional area of defence procurement at this time (and for some while) but even they have suffered form incoherent leadership and direction from their political leadership.
You'll find this all detailed in the relevant threads here on Arrse.
It looks like we are in the same page, though I don’t differentiate between the MoD, the Treasury, and the ministers that run them. There were very few technical reasons for 45, CVF or even the 26 to be late and over budget, which itself is a miracle for such large programmes. It’s was all down to managerial incompetence and financial mismanagement.
It looks like we are in the same page, though I don’t differentiate between the MoD, the Treasury, and the ministers that run them. There were very few technical reasons for 45, CVF or even the 26 to be late and over budget, which itself is a miracle for such large programmes. It’s was all down to managerial incompetence and financial mismanagement.
Yes and yes.May have been discussed before but is that and AGM-65 near the left wingtip? It looks a bit small. Is that also a HARM?
View attachment 538856
Yes and yes.
According to t'interweb, they are.I didn’t think either were cleared for Typhoon?
Spotter hat on... from left wingtip inward, top row, you've got an IRIS-T air-to-air missile, an AGM-65 Maverick, a GBU-12 or similar (500lb bomb body with guidance kit), an AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon, then an AGM-88 HARM (followed by what looks like a Paveway III, a KEPD-350 and a targeting pod).May have been discussed before but is that and AGM-65 near the left wingtip? It looks a bit small. Is that also a HARM?
View attachment 538856
I suspect thats only true if you are counting the likes of Iraq in 91 in that figure
Really want to cite a source for that,
Regardless it ignores that unles you have a B52 which can carry a Tomohawk equivelant - you are limited to what can be lifted by a fast Jet type - Said missiles will be shorter ranged and so unsuprisingly the ability to penetrate defended airspace is required
Now a UAV could do this - but not youre cheap COTS wankwaffen
Your wunderwaffen Amozon drones can be jammed by an inconvienient phone single
Drones will require far more comms to control them so more suceptible to disruption
Drones especially your cheap 50K suiciders - will have limited power and options to change frequencies.
The ground station for your fantasy cheap wonder drones is equally limited
Typhoon - with its operator onboard - isnt so affected by jamming of Comms once its been assigned a target
It has far greater onboard power and can change frequencies at the touch of a button.
Drones which can do what Typhoon can are going to be similar in size shape and cost.
Yawn - strawman arguments delibertly obsfucating the point.
Until it isnt or you need to evade an incoming missile
Ah right - so youre calling for cheap uber drones because according to you Tanks, infantry , SAMS EW vehicles have all been smited with impunity .
Meanwhile its ridiculous to suggest A Drone launcher could be identified and smited from above - have you any idea how stupid you are making yourself look.
Strawman - No ones claimed that,
However we are back into the Why have Typhoon / F15 / F35 / bombing terry Taliban when a Hawk / Tuccano / Super Bronco could do the Job.
A much covered point which amounts to - because one can do peer the other cant and we can only afford to run one of them.
Of course as ever you ignore the (inconvinient) fact the RAF does indeed operarate slow long loitering armed UAS able to observe and strike against terry taliban.