Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

UK military to get biggest spending boost in 30 years

Ok the UAVs launch from the back of a truck, ISO container, ship or Volvo V70... Though we will exclude shopping trolleys. They don't need a runway.

Let's say they loiter out of visual range or above cloud cover and listen out for the distinctive whine of a jet engine, then glide in on the 'worth their weight in gold' fighter..

How are you going to defend against them?
Same way as my last answer you weak individual.
 
They did get aircraft airborne, see Scott Speicher who was a cas first night of ops. JP did it's job though, which was to shut down ops from targeted a/f for a limited period.

Some got Airborne and biggerred off to Iran as well.

For the record I wasnt claiming nothing got airborne and every airfield was locked down - rather that its the last time i recall runway denial being done.
2nd round i imagine his airforce was on a par with a to remain namleless latin American countries and between the 2 it was various UN interventions in the Balkans etc and dont think that was the done thing for the UN (however much other nations felt it was deserved).


Back onto the topic of uber wunderwaffen Dronz - these 500 quid swarming drones you can pick up on flea bay - asides from all the issues viz EW - how fast are they and how do they cope with a 30kt headwind.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Ok the UAVs launch from the back of a truck, ISO container, ship or Volvo V70... Though we will exclude shopping trolleys. They don't need a runway.

Let's say they loiter out of visual range or above cloud cover and listen out for the distinctive whine of a jet engine, then glide in on the 'worth their weight in gold' fighter..

How are you going to defend against them?

So, cheap UAS is loitering out of visual range (what, four miles or so from the runway, given the size of airfields, perimeter defences, and so on?)

Hears jet engine start up, goes "aha!", closes with the airfield at its maximum speed of 10-15 metres per second.

Ten minutes later, it gets to where the jet started up and wanders around plaintively asking "where did it go?"

Or, it curves off into a futile pursuit of "engine start... taxi.... really loud now... and heading thataway at 400 knots" with a thirty-knot drone trying hopelessly to catch up.


Of course, one defence is to every so often either run up an engine on a test stand, or just play the sound of a jet engine at the appropriate volume. Rig an electrified cage around the speaker and it's the counter-UAS version of a mosquito lamp...
 
Some got Airborne and biggerred off to Iran as well.

For the record I wasnt claiming nothing got airborne and every airfield was locked down - rather that its the last time i recall runway denial being done.
2nd round i imagine his airforce was on a par with a to remain namleless latin American countries and between the 2 it was various UN interventions in the Balkans etc and dont think that was the done thing for the UN (however much other nations felt it was deserved).


Back onto the topic of uber wunderwaffen Dronz - these 500 quid swarming drones you can pick up on flea bay - asides from all the issues viz EW - how fast are they and how do they cope with a 30kt headwind.
I think a Tornado claimed a May or similar but is was still on the deck and taxying @Archimedes will probably know - didn't think you were claiming that nothing got airborne BTW. Round 2 was just a gloves off continuation for the RAF who had been in theatre since the first disagreement.

It's all relevant though, the JP attacks were successful as far as they went but...nobody had factored in how big Iraqi airfields were. It's quite hard, even with PGMs to shut down an airfield totally.
 
I think a Tornado claimed a May or similar but is was still on the deck and taxying @Archimedes will probably know

Im sure it was a Mig, But that is only because I remember the "Mig Eater" nose art -

As I recall (or perhaps it should be as the legend goes) it was barralleling down said runway to intercept the incoming aircraft when they passed overhead.
Of course as you say Archemides is the man - im 1st to admit my facts on this are gleaned from possibly enbelished tales handed to the media , half remembered tales all aided by less than reliable recollection
 

Slime

LE
1991

Although its still disputed as to whether the mig was wheels up when it succsesfiully intercepted a JP233's Bomblets

Shhhh, the experts are trying to say only UAVs are the answer, and that UAVs would black the runway, pointing out a manned fast jet is the right answer* isn’t what they want to hear.

*Although mentioning JP233 and ‘answer’ isn’t always wise either :)
 

Slime

LE
Ok the UAVs launch from the back of a TARGET, TARGET, TARGET or TARGET... Though we will exclude shopping trolleys. They don't need a runway. BUT THE TARGET EMITS traceable emissions.

Let's say they loiter out of visual range BUT NOT MISSILE, CRUISE MISSILE OR AIRCRAFT range or above cloud cover and listen out for the distinctive whine of a jet engine, then glide in on the 'worth their weight in gold' fighter..

How are you going to defend against them?

did the alterations help :)
 

Slime

LE
In practice, we've not trained truly, deeply proficient infantry soldiers since before the battle of the Somme.

The ghost of Sir Ivor Maxse might dispute that slightly, although only to push your time to the 2nd Battle of the Sambre before agreeing with you...
I think a Tornado claimed a May or similar but is was still on the deck and taxying @Archimedes will probably know - didn't think you were claiming that nothing got airborne BTW. Round 2 was just a gloves off continuation for the RAF who had been in theatre since the first disagreement.

It's all relevant though, the JP attacks were successful as far as they went but...nobody had factored in how big Iraqi airfields were. It's quite hard, even with PGMs to shut down an airfield totally.
Im sure it was a Mig, But that is only because I remember the "Mig Eater" nose art -

As I recall (or perhaps it should be as the legend goes) it was barralleling down said runway to intercept the incoming aircraft when they passed overhead.
Of course as you say Archemides is the man - im 1st to admit my facts on this are gleaned from possibly enbelished tales handed to the media , half remembered tales all aided by less than reliable recollection

The Tornado nicknamed Mig-Eater was thought to have hit a MiG-29 with a JP233 bomblet, but post-war examination suggests that it was a Mirage F1

Buccaneers got two An-12s*. One was hit by a Paveway which failed to go off, but oddly enough, having 1000lb of metal pass through the aircraft at several hundred miles an hour left it in a bit of a mess; another was hit by a Paveway which went bang; the Pave Spike footage made it to the telly.

*some sources say that one was a Kuwaiti C-130 which the Iraqis had 'borrowed', but the clarity of the video footage wasn't clear enough; I forget if the ID was sorted out after the war.
 
Ok the UAVs launch from the back of a truck, ISO container, ship or Volvo V70... Though we will exclude shopping trolleys. They don't need a runway.

Let's say they loiter out of visual range or above cloud cover and listen out for the distinctive whine of a jet engine, then glide in on the 'worth their weight in gold' fighter..

How are you going to defend against them?
By being out of range of the small ones that are numerous and difficult to target and shooting down those that are large enough to get to the airbase and then loiter.

Incidentally, at today’s prices, an 11t Typhoon would be worth £500m if it was gold. The 14.7t F35 would be £660m
 
Buccaneers got two An-12s
#sigh#

The last truly aerodynamic British military airframe, designed without pylons for underslung loads, all payloads being carried in the belly of the beast.

I watched them as a CCF cadet, practicing dogfighting over Dartmoor in the early 1970s, and trailing/filming Boscome Down trials above my Bulford office 20 years later (where one of my Arty colleagues was a delightful - if somewhat arthritic - former RN Buccaneer pilot)

None of which adds in the slightest to what passes for discussion on this thread, but it gave me a warm feeling to reminisce, however briefly :thumleft:
 

Slime

LE
#sigh#

The last truly aerodynamic British military airframe, designed without pylons for underslung loads, all payloads being carried in the belly of the beast.

I watched them as a CCF cadet, practicing dogfighting over Dartmoor in the early 1970s, and trailing/filming Boscome Down trials above my Bulford office 20 years later (where one of my Arty colleagues was a delightful - if somewhat arthritic - former RN Buccaneer pilot)

None of which adds in the slightest to what passes for discussion on this thread, but it gave me a warm feeling to reminisce, however briefly :thumleft:
Watching a buccaneer practice ‘dogfighting’ in the ‘70s must have been a surreal experience.
 
Watching a buccaneer practice ‘dogfighting’ in the ‘70s must have been a surreal experience.
I was not yet 16, with no frame of reference.

It was impressive, I will say that, to watch the pair of them, back then.

It wasn't until (the mid 1980s when) I was treated to a Boscombe Down test pilot extolling the joys of flying the things day in day out that I got an inkling of the quality that was built in to that airframe.
 

Slime

LE
I was not yet 16, with no frame of reference.

It was impressive, I will say that, to watch the pair of them, back then.

It wasn't until (the mid 1980s when) I was treated to a Boscombe Down test pilot extolling the joys of flying the things day in day out that I got an inkling of the quality that was built in to that airframe.

It was certainly a very strong airframe. As you weren’t yet 16 it’s fair to allow a complete lack of air to air weapons or gun not be an issue with watching dogfights.

Later, in the ‘80s, the RAF recruiting film showing buccaneers has often been said to have had by far the biggest influence on air cadets of any film shown.
Even now the film looks good, and the sound track is just right.

May as well add the film, for the sake of nostalgia. :)

 
The easy way I'd defend against a swarm of those (Yunec Typhoon H Plus), is to either stay 600 metres from their operator (operating range 520m) or shoot the person setting them up before they take off.

How are you getting them to actually "swarm"? To be aware of other drones, and share information among the group? Let me guess, they'll pass their GPS fix to each other? A jammer that'll shut that down totally, can be built at home for £10 of components and the biggest part of it is the PP9 battery. If you're not using GPS, then suddenly your "sense and share" has become much more complicated, noisy and expensive...

It's one of those terms thrown around with gay abandon, yet actually doing it turns out to be a lot more difficult. Unless you're a gullible sucker like @PhotEx who fawns over every passing fad as the Total Transformation Of Warfare Making All Before It Obsolete, of course.

There's good money to be made by getting this stuff to work reliably, robustly and effectively - but it turns out to be rather harder to do for real, than in Powerpoint and CGI.
In terms of using small commercial quad or hex copter drones as "swarm" weapons, the proposals that I have read about seem to require completely new software, additional sensors, and probably a larger and more powerful computing board. They would be armed with a small fragmentation warhead, perhaps something equivalent to a grenade.

The applications involved turning them into what basically amounted to self deploying anti-personnel minefields. They would be flown or otherwise moved to location and left there, where they would sit with sensors active. When they saw motion of the appropriate sort they would fly towards it and detonate in proximity to the target. The system allows a relatively large area to be "mined" with a much smaller number of munitions and also much more quickly than would be the case with conventional anti-personnel mines.

Western countries may not develop them because they may be of rather dubious legality, but other countries or organisations may. It's worth thinking about how to counter them.
 
Without ever defending Crapita, that still works out cheaper than having a cable-jockey sitting around on the off chance a bit of wiring is required.

I do general IT support for a couple of local small companies... they know that they get value for money for what I charge - and for the occasional few hours of my time that they need, they cannot justify having someone in house.
Outsourcing (Front Office, Front Office) can work - if properly managed.

Crapita employ permanent staff, and upsize by bringing contractors in. Obviously they have to have DV. But no check on their abilities as they are just being sold on.

And don’t get me started on dealing with E&Y.


I met the Senior Officer in charge, nice bloke, way out of his depth.

So imagine he will be promoted.
 

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top