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UK military to get biggest spending boost in 30 years

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
How do you defend against a swarm?

The easy way I'd defend against a swarm of those (Yunec Typhoon H Plus), is to either stay 600 metres from their operator (operating range 520m) or shoot the person setting them up before they take off.

How are you getting them to actually "swarm"? To be aware of other drones, and share information among the group? Let me guess, they'll pass their GPS fix to each other? A jammer that'll shut that down totally, can be built at home for £10 of components and the biggest part of it is the PP9 battery. If you're not using GPS, then suddenly your "sense and share" has become much more complicated, noisy and expensive...

It's one of those terms thrown around with gay abandon, yet actually doing it turns out to be a lot more difficult. Unless you're a gullible sucker like @PhotEx who fawns over every passing fad as the Total Transformation Of Warfare Making All Before It Obsolete, of course.

There's good money to be made by getting this stuff to work reliably, robustly and effectively - but it turns out to be rather harder to do for real, than in Powerpoint and CGI.
 
Without ever defending Crapita, that still works out cheaper than having a cable-jockey sitting around on the off chance a bit of wiring is required.

I do general IT support for a couple of local small companies... they know that they get value for money for what I charge - and for the occasional few hours of my time that they need, they cannot justify having someone in house.
Wasn't going to get into this but...was/is the Capita networks bod even based on site? Should you charge a flat rate for something without being sure of the outcome? And so on...

I'd also add that plod are "worst in the feckin' world" for picking up kit and shifting it themselves. Then denying that they've plugged it into the The TS network even though you watched them do it. The second last such place I worked at had a legacy network and phone system, moved users between roles/locations frequently and insisted that their phone number followed them. Sometime we couldn't reassign the number and had to access multiple switch rooms for the wiring which was, and probably still is, like this:
1605962133699.png


"It's only a telephone number." The outsourcer was losing money on the contract, having advised the customer to go VOIP in 2010 or similar and it being knocked back.

I did a lot of work for outsourcers, though not Capita and for every £100 password reset quote there's a corresponding example like the one above.
 
And while we are still titting about with Amazon drones, look what Turkey are doing flight trials on....
a long range Cylon strike aircraft - carries everything from bombs, through A2A missiles to cruise missiles.


,
Are you there yet? A reminder where it goes in the real world against a capable, or even half capable, opponent.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Are you there yet? A reminder where it goes in the real world against a capable, or even half capable, opponent.
But that doesn't count, because reasons, and swarming, and AI, and emergent technologies!
 
Technology and in particular the software have moved on considerably since then.

if this is what is available to civvies as a possible AI control module,

View attachment 522339

imagine what a couple of hundred of these carrying a couple of kilos of bang stuff could do.

View attachment 522342





Say £5k a pop at retail prices.

How do you defend against a swarm?
See here:

 
But that doesn't count, because reasons, and swarming, and AI, and emergent technologies!
I'd have given you a like but you forgot "Turkey"
 

Slime

LE
Are you there yet? A reminder where it goes in the real world against a capable, or even half capable, opponent.
I was only thinking of that vid yesterday.
While it does show a high end UAV being shot down very easily, it also highlights other areas where a UAV is not even in the same league as a manned aircraft.

And yet we still see a poster championing an UAV able to carry air to air missiles.

Great..... let’s have a quick think about a UAV with air to air missiles.
No real 360 vision, or ability to look quickly over its shoulder.
Very poor situational awareness.
No useful defensive aids.
Low speed.......Obviously low speed is also poor for air to air missile firing.
Not very manouverable.
Very often with a prop making it very easy to see on radar.
No radar to seek opponents at range

When watching the above vid we could also wonder if the attacking fighter was a singleton or part of a pair.........The UAV operator certainly didn’t know...........so couldn’t know how to evade.
 

Slime

LE
But that doesn't count, because reasons, and swarming, and AI, and emergent technologies!

You missed facial recognition............ in a military sense of course!

Able to recognise faces wearing helmets, balaclavas, hats, in the dark or when wearing cam cream etc..............and obviously able to see through veils or scrim. :)

I’m just off to start a small enterprise selling photos of white peoples faces stuck on poles to counteract these new drones ;)
 

Bob65

War Hero
How are you getting them to actually "swarm"? To be aware of other drones, and share information among the group?

Drone swarming is one of those things people talk about a lot but do you even need it? If you need 50 drones to do the job (e.g. carry enough explosives) why not just launch 100 in the same direction and accept that you will lose a few to collisions? They're cheap. Add a little bit of randomness to each one perhaps with a "box" if you want to go the extra mile on avoiding collisions, and you have a very useful, hard to shoot down "swarm" without needing any clever AI or peer-to-peer comms.
 
I was only thinking of that vid yesterday.
While it does show a high end UAV being shot down very easily, it also highlights other areas where a UAV is not even in the same league as a manned aircraft.

And yet we still see a poster championing an UAV able to carry air to air missiles.

Great..... let’s have a quick think about a UAV with air to air missiles.
No real 360 vision, or ability to look quickly over its shoulder.
Very poor situational awareness.
No useful defensive aids.
Low speed.......Obviously low speed is also poor for air to air missile firing.
Not very manouverable.
Very often with a prop making it very easy to see on radar.
No radar to seek opponents at range

When watching the above vid we could also wonder if the attacking fighter was a singleton or part of a pair.........The UAV operator certainly didn’t know...........so couldn’t know how to evade.
You might want to consider what capability an F-35 or upgraded Typhoon have in the electronic attack sphere as well.
 
Drones - over the horizon stuff requires relays/satcom - wheres the damn bandwidth coming from ?
 

Slime

LE
You might want to consider what capability an F-35 or upgraded Typhoon have in the electronic attack sphere as well.

F35 is the main type I’ve discussed out of those two, It’s always notable to hear how the real world problems or achievements bear little to no resemblance to the common Quora or F35 bashing posts :)
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
As we are heading into a grand solar minimum I suspect the supposed overpopulation issue will.... ahem... work itself out. If, that is, you accept it is a problem at all.

Meanwhile though those promoting fast jets as the answer to drones are going to have to explain how you secure an airbase from drone attack. More than likely a squadron of fast jets on a fixed airbase is just a couple billion $s worth of ripe targets.

Regardless of current effectiveness whilst airbourne the strategic economics of mass production of drones versus aircraft which need several years of pilot training to operate are pretty obvious. And that before you consider the hundreds of skilled ground trades required for the latter.

So too those promoting the idea that EW and the like is enough to protect a force from drones, or drone directed artillery. Even were that true everyone who has worn green knows how often these things break down. Last time I looked Russia put more effort into EW than anyone else, and they appear to have lost confidence in both their local air defence systems and some of their EW kit.

Still, if we did have to go to war tomorrow it is pretty clear that our forces would be woefully unprepared for such new fangled techology which we shunned 8 years ago.

But the good news is that no-one will be responsible.
 
As we are heading into a grand solar minimum I suspect the supposed overpopulation issue will.... ahem... work itself out. If, that is, you accept it is a problem at all.

Meanwhile though those promoting fast jets as the answer to drones are going to have to explain how you secure an airbase from drone attack. More than likely a squadron of fast jets on a fixed airbase is just a couple billion $s worth of ripe targets.

Regardless of current effectiveness whilst airbourne the strategic economics of mass production of drones versus aircraft which need several years of pilot training to operate are pretty obvious. And that before you consider the hundreds of skilled ground trades required for the latter.

So too those promoting the idea that EW and the like is enough to protect a force from drones, or drone directed artillery. Even were that true everyone who has worn green knows how often these things break down. Last time I looked Russia put more effort into EW than anyone else, and they appear to have lost confidence in both their local air defence systems and some of their EW kit.

Still, if we did have to go to war tomorrow it is pretty clear that our forces would be woefully unprepared for such new fangled techology which we shunned 8 years ago.

But the good news is that no-one will be responsible.

your own private CAS force - in handy little boxes in the back of a truck

8A221E38-7C3A-4EF6-823F-62C66A315256.jpeg




and what does a proper fast jet costing $150 million bring to the party , when this little scamp can deliver a couple of cruise missiles too?
(and yes, those are air to air missiles)

58BB7998-379A-4D5E-99D4-2E8097057476.jpeg
 
What boost is that, another ship for the navy or another aeroplane for the RAF?
 
and what does a proper fast jet costing $150 million bring to the party , when this little scamp can deliver a couple of cruise missiles too?
(and yes, those are air to air missiles)
Speed, agility, altitude, payload, sensors, defensive aides, autonomy of action?
 

Coldhands

Swinger
your own private CAS force - in handy little boxes in the back of a truck

View attachment 522391



and what does a proper fast jet costing $150 million bring to the party , when this little scamp can deliver a couple of cruise missiles too?
(and yes, those are air to air missiles)

View attachment 522392

How does that prop UAV deal with say an F-35 that has detected it and smoked it before the man with joystick in the truck even knows its there?
 

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