UK ID Cards

#1
Just watched this video (English Civil War) that was posted in the Naafi bar. WARNING it's quite gory in places.

A little after 2mins 40secs, it shows an ID card from New Jersey that is for a muslim woman with a fully covered face. The video claims that Muslims, or at least those who choose to fully cover their face, will be exempt from carrying ID cards when they are introduced in the UK!

Is this true?

Feel free to shoot me down if I've misinterpreted the video. I also appreciate that it is very likely to be biased.
 
#2
There was an arguement that Muslim women should have their photo taken with covered faces but the government said no they would have to take the photos without the face vail and there are no exceptions. Unless of course Blair has decided to change it.
 
#5
minime33 said:
There was an arguement that Muslim women should have their photo taken with covered faces but the government said no they would have to take the photos without the face vail and there are no exceptions. Unless of course Blair has decided to change it.
or wifey has a go :roll: But you're quite right as they can be given special dispensation for the taking of the photgraph or when having to show that they match the ID:
In December 2004, the Identity Cards Programme conducted a special issues research which included individuals from various faith groups. The full results can be found on the website at www.identitycards.gov.uk. However, Muslim and Sikh women expressed concerns about removing their religious garments at an enrolment centre.

A head and shoulders photograph showing features of the face will be included on the card. Regulations about types of photographs will be in line with those currently in place for passports and driving licence photographs. The UK Passport Service exercises its discretion as far as possible. However, the over-riding rule (set by international standards) is that the applicant's photo should show a full face and that all features should be clearly distinguishable.

At some DVLA offices, Muslim women are offered a facility to go to a private office and reveal their face to a female member of staff so that their face can be matched against the photograph. The operation of ID cards will include guidance along these lines to ensure discretion and sensitivity.
Edited to add link: Ministerial Question
 
#6
I saw the video - excellent sentiments...what if I were to stand in the middle of town with a large sign saying "behead those who slander Christianity?"
 
#8
minime33 said:
There was an arguement that Muslim women should have their photo taken with covered faces but the government said no they would have to take the photos without the face vail and there are no exceptions. Unless of course Blair has decided to change it.
Just done a Google on it and I can't find anything anywhere that says that they will be forced to show their faces. 20 plus pages saying that they are exempt and will only have to give fingerprint or Iris data.

So, is plod going to start carrying around mobile fingerprint or retina scanners in order to treat us all equally?
 
#9
Matters not to me, I will not be having an ID Card of that nature. Ever
I have a Passport ans a photocard driving licence, dont think anything else is necessary thankyou
 
#10
jagman said:
Matters not to me, I will not be having an ID Card of that nature. Ever
I have a Passport ans a photocard driving licence, dont think anything else is necessary thankyou
Might be a bit of a bugger when they start requiring it for NHS treatment etc then.
 
#12
don't care. i'm with BUPA :D
 
#13
Carcass said:
jagman said:
Matters not to me, I will not be having an ID Card of that nature. Ever
I have a Passport ans a photocard driving licence, dont think anything else is necessary thankyou
Might be a bit of a bugger when they start requiring it for NHS treatment etc then.
You are most probably right, but I'm still not having one :lol:
 
#14
I'm sure its been argued on another threat,

but having lived in places that require ID cards, I really don't see the issue at all. Ok so they are expensive but other than that??
Pretty much all european nations have them without ill effect or some massive lost of privacy. The advantages are clear over the current mess of NI, Drivers License, NHS etc.. etc...

You may say a Drivers License is fine for you, well not everyone has one, especially in large cities and a good chuck on the population are too young/old to qualify for them.
 
#15
I know it runs contrary to my argument but its still food for though...


Identity cards
Dangerous data

Apr 29th 2004
From The Economist print edition
Databases are more worrying than ID cards
Alamy

THE notion of the British bulldog nipping at the ankles of the encroaching state is an appealing one, but it does not bear much examination. Britons seem untroubled by a variety of threats to their privacy. They are watched by more CCTV cameras than anywhere else, their genetic material is captured in the world's biggest DNA database and now they are dead keen for the government to introduce identity cards (see article). No wonder David Blunkett, the home secretary and a long-standing advocate of ID cards, sounded confident when he announced on April 26th draft legislation for setting up a national identity register and made it clear that he wants to make cards compulsory for everybody over the age of 16.

ID cards were used in and after the second world war, until, in 1951, Harold Muckle, a police constable, demanded that Clarence Willcock, a north London dry cleaner and a Briton in the bulldog mould, show him his papers. Mr Willcock refused. The case went to the Court of Appeal, and, although Mr Willcock lost, the government was embarrassed enough to abolish ID cards the following year.

Since then, successive governments have looked at reintroducing them, have produced plans to do so, have been attacked by civil libertarians and have given up the idea as not worth the bother. But the world has changed, and this government thinks that the cards' potential usefulness in combating terrorism, illegal immigration and benefit fraud outweighs the costs of introducing them.

A few people—including some cabinet ministers—remain hostile. Patricia Hewitt, trade and industry secretary and former head of the National Council for Civil Liberties, and Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, are said to dislike them. Gordon Brown, the chancellor, has yet to commit himself either way, and is believed to be worried about the cost. Civil liberties groups and newspapers have also been voicing concerns.

But ID cards are the wrong focus for worries about threats to privacy. They have been in use for years in most European countries without leading to any notable abuses. What's more, ID cards are just a small but visible manifestation of a wider and more troubling trend.

The wider trend that needs watching is the computerisation of the state. The government is building huge electronic databases containing information about people's tax payments, employment status, educational record, benefit claims, health, criminal activities and family relationships, not to mention the suspicions that intelligence agencies may have about them. It has access to CCTV film of them. If road-pricing comes in, it will track their movements in cars.

All this is happening not because government cannot resist encroaching on people's privacy, but because it is undergoing an IT revolution which is moving information from cardboard files to computers. This process should make government more efficient, because information can be stored, accessed and manipulated more easily, and databases can be linked.

That's the problem. People want efficient government, but they don't want lots of civil servants nosing around in the intimate details of their lives; nor do they necessarily want the taxman to know about their health. What's more, databases are only as good as the information in them. Last year, the Criminal Records Bureau wrongly identified at least 193 job applicants as having criminal records. If databases talk to each other, such errors will be replicated through the system.
Tell me what you know

The best way to deal with the increasing power that databases give the government is to balance it with commensurate power for citizens. The Data Protection Act goes some way towards doing that, but not far enough: the government still has too much power to withhold information, and there is no clear regime for determining which bits of government have access to information held by other ministries and agencies.

Those who attack the ID plan do so for the right reasons, but they have chosen the wrong target. The real danger lies not in small plastic cards but in huge databases.

EDIT: Formatting
 
#16
Have a look at the "yes Minister" episode titled "Big Brother" very funny and had some good points regarding who has access to the information on the database
 
#17
my personal opposition to ID cards is all to do with the fact that we are going to have to pay for something that is compulsory. Our very existence is being taxed!!!
Every other card or document you have to pay for is a matter of choice ie: driving licence,passport, marriage certificate etc. The only opt out of paying for these cards is to be poor or dead!!!
The thing that really winds me up is that some of the people who the card is meant to deal with(dole scroungers) will probably get it for free!!!
%$£****&@@@:()£"! :!: :!: :?
 
#18
ID Cards now that brings back memories, standing on parade with a lump of plastic in your breast pocket. Didn't have a problem with that, didn't care that MOD big brother knew my bloodgroup or the fact that I was C of E, I wasn't but I could live with it.

Stayed in Germany, had to have an ID card, couldn't register a car without it, couldn't do a lot of things without it, couldn't stay in Germany without it. Had to pay for it of course but nowhere near what HM Government wants for their version. Resisted the temptation to carry a handbag like some German men, just had bulging pockets with all the crap you HAD to carry about with you.

Live in Holland, same situation, can't do anything without an ID Card, it's law to have identity in a public place, also EU law. Not bothered, had to pay for it but worth it alone for the trendy hologram. Frightens the odd sucker in an argument, they think you're old bill.

The UK cards were intended to cut benefit fraud or were they intended to counter terrorism or to receive NHS treatment or to get laughed at in a BUPA hospital, wonder what the reason is today. I agree that the cards should be free as all this benefit fraud saved by the introduction of ID Cards will more than cover the cost but no doubt the charge will remain. As for the collation of information on large databases, this will remain on the individual databases as virtually every government department is incapable of talking to other departments electronically. Software firms have been milking this for years and apparently success is not an important part of these multi million pound contracts.

The problems about whether Muslim women have to bare all reminds me of the motorcycle crash helmet laws where large villages became Sikhs overnight. There are CCTV cameras in every place possible except where there might be crime so we are constantly monitored and run the daily risk of appearing on "You've been framed" if we do anything stupid, incidentally much better now with Harry Hill. There is face recognition software in place at Dover so as the three people left in Germany that constitutes what's left of BFG enter after a liquid lunch on board, they will be instantly recognized unless they are wearing sunglasses so I'm afraid sunglasses will be banned and all ethnic groups who wear them.

It's a real pig's ear of a scheme but it will come, it will be unpopular, you will pay for it (dearly) and there will be so many exceptions that the scheme will be a mockery and will not achieve any of the goals that it was introduced for but then you know that already. Sorry for butting in, I'm off to look at my hologram again, it's really cool.
 
#19
Radovan said:
Just watched this video (English Civil War) that was posted in the Naafi bar. WARNING it's quite gory in places.

A little after 2mins 40secs, it shows an ID card from New Jersey that is for a muslim woman with a fully covered face. The video claims that Muslims, or at least those who choose to fully cover their face, will be exempt from carrying ID cards when they are introduced in the UK!

Is this true?

Feel free to shoot me down if I've misinterpreted the video. I also appreciate that it is very likely to be biased.
That video = true.
 
#20
The key problem with ID cards is that, like laws, they work well with law-abiding people, but those who would be disadvantaged by them will soon find a way to avoid them - most likely by Cherie Bliar or someone using human rights legislation to create loopholes.

I think we will immediately see:
- muslim and other ethnic minorities being given dispensations on religeous grounds (making ID cards useless in counter-islamic terrorism efforts);
- lower-income/unemployed will be excused on grounds of cost (thus nullifying any hope of reining in benefits fraud);
- illegal immigrants and transient foreigners won't have them (and the Police won't bother to ask for a visa anyway);
- and in any case - just like "stop-and-search" - the Police will very quickly make sure that they check 99x middle-class white ID cards for each 1x suspect ID card, just to keep within PC quotas....

Oh, and if the cards do become compulsory, the first tranche of non-ID cardholders to go to jail will be pensioners who've already spent their pittance on council tax and heating bills....
 
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