UK gobment wanted to redraw the ROI/Six Counties border

#1
This is the first time I've heard about this. Apparently the UK gobment under Heath had plans drawn up to forcibly relocate Catholics and Protestants within Ireland, ceding territory to the ROI for them to live on.

It seems that it wasn’t any basic thoughts about the fundamental moral and ethical principles involved which prevented the plan from being instigated, but rather the fear of attracting the opprobrium of the rest of the world. This was in 1972, not 1872, by the way. It appears the UK still had the “colonial habit” even then.

Here are a few articles on it:

http://www.barnesreview.org/html/nov2008lead_120.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2601577.stm

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jan2003/ire-j11.shtml

Does anybody have any more information on this?

MsG
 
#2
Who cares, they probably considered nuking the place as well, if they didn't they should have.
 
#3
They also had plans at the same time, to move all the catholics into west belfast, and move all the prods into east belfast. Seems and i have the info somewhere if i could be arrsed, that the UDA and IRA actually got wind and held talks to resist the plans together.

Which may have actually allowed us to nuke belfast.
 
#4
I suspect it was more pragmatism than anything else that scuppered it. The IRA wouldn't have been content with just that and all it would have achieved would have been moving their log bases a few miles closer to Belfast.
 
#6
scarletto said:
What they should have done, is move everyone from the South to the North and vice versa, that would have really confused them.
No, if they wanted to confuse them they would have used a spade and a fork and asked them to take their pick.
 
#7
The 1921 Treaty meant that counties with a Catholic majority became part of the North in order to create a viable state.

The start of the troubles saw thousands of refugees moving south of the border.

The treaty allowed for a border commission at a later date in order to decide any changes to the border. It never happened! If it had due to gerrymandering the results would have meant the size of NI wouldn't be reduced.

The South also had plans to invade the North.
 
#8
It all started going wrong when the Empire started to fade.

Bring back the Empire, when the finest country in the world (that would be England) ruled 1/4 of the Earths land area, and 1/4 of the Earths population in an Empire upon which the Sun never set.
 
#9
Maggie mused on expelling all the Catholics and putting up a sort of Berlin wall style border.
civil servants explained why that wasn't a feasible plan :roll:
 
#10
irlsgt said:
The 1921 Treaty meant that counties with a Catholic majority became part of the North in order to create a viable state.

The start of the troubles saw thousands of refugees moving south of the border.

The treaty allowed for a border commission at a later date in order to decide any changes to the border. It never happened! If it had due to gerrymandering the results would have meant the size of NI wouldn't be reduced.

The South also had plans to invade the North.
It did indeed - which stopped when 3 Bde formed up in the Barracks in Shoeburyness in 1970 and moved to S Armagh.

Along with 16 Para Bde - and their WOMBATS! And Capt Fuckwit (James Kelly) of Irish Intelligence got found out!

Google Plan W for WW2 stuff! The deep water Ports of Donegal were of vital importance.
 
#11
'It seems that it wasn’t any basic thoughts about the fundamental moral and ethical principles involved which prevented the plan from being instigated, but rather the fear of attracting the opprobrium of the rest of the world. This was in 1972, not 1872, by the way. It appears the UK still had the “colonial habit” even then'

And your problem is! - Like it or lump it the troubles of thr 60s/70s involved and included those from the UVF days of 1912/1914. They grew up with, lived with and dealt with, what they saw as the threat to their way of life. A good p?*s take of it all is Spike Milligans 'Puckoon'.

also 'and troubles saw thousands of refugees moving south of the border' - scuse my ignorance, but what happened to the sizeable Prot communities in the 'Free State?.
 
#12
Not a new story at all. I believe it was discussd in Toby Harndens "Bandit Country" amongst many other works. Don't have access to them at present so I can't check that fact/assertion.

My understanding was that the proposal to hand over chunks of S Armagh and Fermanagh were met with absolute horror ... by the Republic.
 
#13
An elderly mentor of mine, now long departed would, back in the day, oft voice the opinion that the populations of Ireland and The Netherlands should be exchanged.
 
#14
irlsgt said:
The 1921 Treaty meant that counties with a Catholic majority became part of the North in order to create a viable state.
Nope...

The counties of Donegall, Cavan and Monaghan were NOT included in Northern Ireland although they were (and, of course, still are) part of the Province of Ulster.

This was because those three counties did have a Catholic majority.
 
#15
rickshaw-major said:
irlsgt said:
The 1921 Treaty meant that counties with a Catholic majority became part of the North in order to create a viable state.

The start of the troubles saw thousands of refugees moving south of the border.

The treaty allowed for a border commission at a later date in order to decide any changes to the border. It never happened! If it had due to gerrymandering the results would have meant the size of NI wouldn't be reduced.

The South also had plans to invade the North.
It did indeed - which stopped when 3 Bde formed up in the Barracks in Shoeburyness in 1970 and moved to S Armagh.

Along with 16 Para Bde - and their WOMBATS! And Capt Fuckwit (James Kelly) of Irish Intelligence got found out!

Google Plan W for WW2 stuff! The deep water Ports of Donegal were of vital importance.
I may be wrong here, Rickshaw_major, but I don't think that's what your man meant. It was Michael Collins himself who made plans to invade the Six Counties (in 1922, I believe) , even sending units up to the border and supplying them.

MsG
 
#16
Seconded Susizu - and perhaps some people might like to research "Fethard on Sea" ( intelligently and in depth however - not the superficial Wiki version).
Michael Collins did a rather "Irish" thing. He supported his sworn enemy De Valera during the Civil War by suppling weaponry for his (De Valera's) IRA incursion into Fermanagh. This was some materiel which had become redundant when the British Government supplied the new Free State Army with some additional equipment. Collin's condition was that the arms would be used against "the North" and not used against Collin's forces. De Valera had of course precipitated the Civil War by refusing to accept the Treaty.
The fledgling RUC, the Ulster Special Constabulary (A, B, and C Specials then), and a small number of Regular Army gunners, sent De Valera packing back across the border.
The scenic route through Boa Island in Fermanagh was a result of this as the NI Government needed a route to Derrygonnelly and Garrison which did not cross the border. They built a road across the Lough by joinong some islands with causeways.
 
#17
I can see that some Arrsers who were born and educated on the "mainland" regularly have difficulty with the history of Ireland due to the very extreme and diametrically opposed interpretations from the opposites within the island as a whole.
I was born in Northern Ireland and received my education at State schools (those schools the Roman Catholic Clergy referred to as "non-Catholic" and therefore unsuitable for the education of their adherents). At NI state schools (there were few if any "Protestant" schools but many RC Church dominated state-funded Catholic schools) the History curriculum was the same as that in other UK educational establishments. There was indeed very little formal reference to the specific and detailed development of the region outside the equivalent to that which might be taught in Edinburgh or Liverpool for example. I knew more about shipbuilding and coal-mining in England then than I knew of the development of NI!
In Donegal and Sligo however my mother's side of the family had completely different history books. So different in fact that I had difficulty squaring two sets of "history"of the same country! The "De Valera factor" was of course dominant then and this could be seen in every facet of the development of the country he saw as his own.
It was only later and in further education that I was able to research in a broader field as it were.
I travelled back and forward regularly as a child and teenager through what was a ridiculously silly border control (often in the late 1940's and 1950's smuggling articles both ways as there were no searches of children), and saw how both countries were developing.
Perhaps those different "history" books should have been synchronised - It could have saved a lot of trouble!
 
#20
Yes CutLunchCommando - but a lot safer then than in and out of Donegal on little narrow roads.
On 11th Feb 1922 five members of the Ulster Special Constabulary were killed (during a truce) when the train taking them from Newtonards to Enniskillen was routed through Clones in County Monaghan. The IRA attacked while the train waited at Clones for permission to proceed. Things haven't changed much!
 

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