UDI

So how have they managed since we left?:
Well, many kids in Africa suffer from polio. Because the vaccination programs were suspended for a while in some nations.
Obviously AIDS is rife.
And Ebola keeps popping up.
Education wise? Well, Zimbabwe is still rated as one of the best in Africa. Most of the rest? illiteracy and LCD is the norm.
Security and law and order? Well, look at most nations, where the law is what the president for life says it is.
 
So how have they managed since we left?:



I don't disagree with that but it is nothing to do with the point.
The point is that Rhodesia would be a better place now if it had stayed Rhodesian.
Hells Bells I was naïve enough to celebrate independence in 1980 as many did.
The difference is I can see what is happening and the disaster it has become.
 
The point is that Rhodesia would be a better place now if it had stayed Rhodesian.
Hells Bells I was naïve enough to celebrate independence in 1980 as many did.
The difference is I can see what is happening and the disaster it has become.
So your solution is to colonise and disenfranchise the local population?
 
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This thread is amazing. Old white men calling a black African racist for not accepting their uninformed opinions on a country they've never set foot in on a continent they couldn't even begin to understand.

Mega.
 
So your solution is to colonise and disenfranchise the local population?
Ok, this is very much an "IF' thread.
If the colonial masters hadn't left tout suite in the 50s and 60s, and had a 'passing over' period of a few years, maybe Africa wouldn't be such a sh*t hole?
Just upping sticks and leaving behind an infrastructure, but few civil service, army officers, teachers, trained doctors etc was a bad idea.
And got worse when the new governors decided that anybody with an education was athreat. ie civil service, teachers, army officers, trained doctors.
 
If the colonial masters hadn't left tout suite in the 50s and 60s, and had a 'passing over' period of a few years, maybe Africa wouldn't be such a sh*t hole?
All depends on which country and how big a shithole they have become. If you look at 'British' southern Africa you have Zambia, which had a very small white population, Rhodesia with a small white population and Nyasaland again with a small white population.
Just upping sticks and leaving behind an infrastructure, but few civil service, army officers, teachers, trained doctors etc was a bad idea.
Very, but as we had not prepared the countries or the people for takeover we must shoulder the blame for that.
And got worse when the new governors decided that anybody with an education was athreat. ie civil service, teachers, army officers, trained doctors.
Agreed.
 
All depends on which country and how big a shithole they have become. If you look at 'British' southern Africa you have Zambia, which had a very small white population, Rhodesia with a small white population and Nyasaland again with a small white population.

Very, but as we had not prepared the countries or the people for takeover we must shoulder the blame for that.

Agreed.
I have never set foot in Africa so my knowledge is second hand at best but from my reading of Rhodesia the white farmers etc. were training up the native population to be able to take over from them because apart from normal human decency that was their only future and for the best of the country as a whole.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Yes, Africa should. Small matters of security, medical care, education, law and order etc.
Africa wasn't a utopia before 'we' turned up.
It was a bloody savage land.
Still is, in some parts
Getting back to basics as In chopping off kiddies hands from other tribes is very African
 
That was the problem.
Look at the timelines, post WW2, and how quickly the shouting was to 'free the colonies'.
A lot of that, apart from US influence, was that blokes who were prepared to die for the UK were not prepared to carry on fighting to maintain the Empire.
Can you blame them, they had done their bit.
 
I wont reply to each & every moronic post, I'd never finish.
However I served in N. Rhodesia for 3 years, travelled to Kenya, S. Rhodesia, S. Africa and the old Belgian Congo while I was there. My experience in a country that had only seen a white man less than a hundred years ago. showed me many things.
There are good and bad in ALL races.
Our Police and other Africans in Govt. service were in the main very good. Many other Africans who worked on the mines & other industries and rural Africans were the same, with one massive difference, witchcraft and superstition which was rife. The worst excesses, ritual murder, cannibalism etc. had been more or less eliminated.
Tribalism, fighting, raiding etc. too had been more or less controlled.
As British policy set down in Whitehall for N. Rhodesia, African development was a no.1 priority from the commencement of British rule.
Basic education had been extended to all parts of the country, even in remote areas, with secondary schools in many areas and even the first University formed.
Hospitals & clinics had been provided so that on independence no African was more than about 15 - 20 miles away from basic healthcare, even in the remotest parts.
Govt. schemes to improve farming & fishing had been in operation for many years, providing a back up of grain etc in years of poor harvests.
There was an ongoing Govt. policy of training Africans to take over post being held by Europeans. In the Police there were one or two African police senior to me and good chaps they were as well.
This in a country over 2 1/2 times the size of the UK with a population of approx. 2 million with only one rail line and very few metalled roads, all really achieved in 50-60 years when the British Govt. had really taken over at the turn of the century.
For those that say we imposed our ways on them, what were we to do?
It was those very do gooders, the Christian missionaries who had flooded in after Livingstone told of the barbaric ways of that part of Africa, who begged the British Govt. to send in troops to stop the Arab slave raiders & tribal wars/raiding and the excesses of the witchdoctors. These troops became my Police force and very proud I am to say I served.
If we hadn't gone in it would probably been the Belgians or Germans who would have.
To those of a snowflake disposition who say we were racist, I say categorically NO we were not, you might say we were paternalistic as we treated our constables occasionally like children especially when dealing with superstition. Was this wrong? I don't think so, when on bush patrols for a couple of days I would sit around the fire in the evening and talk with my men, they would often ask me about life in the UK and I would explain as best I could. Sometimes African ways & our ways were poles apart. In my thread on my time there I told the tale of the bride price for a wife. There are no words in their language for "love or wife" its like & my woman.
Superstition was rife and risible to us Europeans but we had to take it serious in our day to day dealings with our police as I soon discovered.
So our attitude might be considered paternalistic but with good reason.
The Africans I did not like were the radical politicians who I had to suffer in silence whilst monitoring political rallies. Like the X left wing here, they promised the earth to their would be electorate whilst doing nothing but line their own pockets.
I think listening to Corbyn's garbage he must have attended Lumumba University in Moscow which several of the leading African nationalists did when I was there.
 
I wont reply to each & every moronic post, I'd never finish.
However I served in N. Rhodesia for 3 years, travelled to Kenya, S. Rhodesia, S. Africa and the old Belgian Congo while I was there. My experience in a country that had only seen a white man less than a hundred years ago. showed me many things.
There are good and bad in ALL races.
Our Police and other Africans in Govt. service were in the main very good. Many other Africans who worked on the mines & other industries and rural Africans were the same, with one massive difference, witchcraft and superstition which was rife. The worst excesses, ritual murder, cannibalism etc. had been more or less eliminated.
Tribalism, fighting, raiding etc. too had been more or less controlled.
As British policy set down in Whitehall for N. Rhodesia, African development was a no.1 priority from the commencement of British rule.
Basic education had been extended to all parts of the country, even in remote areas, with secondary schools in many areas and even the first University formed.
Hospitals & clinics had been provided so that on independence no African was more than about 15 - 20 miles away from basic healthcare, even in the remotest parts.
Govt. schemes to improve farming & fishing had been in operation for many years, providing a back up of grain etc in years of poor harvests.
There was an ongoing Govt. policy of training Africans to take over post being held by Europeans. In the Police there were one or two African police senior to me and good chaps they were as well.
This in a country over 2 1/2 times the size of the UK with a population of approx. 2 million with only one rail line and very few metalled roads, all really achieved in 50-60 years when the British Govt. had really taken over at the turn of the century.
For those that say we imposed our ways on them, what were we to do?
It was those very do gooders, the Christian missionaries who had flooded in after Livingstone told of the barbaric ways of that part of Africa, who begged the British Govt. to send in troops to stop the Arab slave raiders & tribal wars/raiding and the excesses of the witchdoctors. These troops became my Police force and very proud I am to say I served.
If we hadn't gone in it would probably been the Belgians or Germans who would have.
To those of a snowflake disposition who say we were racist, I say categorically NO we were not, you might say we were paternalistic as we treated our constables occasionally like children especially when dealing with superstition. Was this wrong? I don't think so, when on bush patrols for a couple of days I would sit around the fire in the evening and talk with my men, they would often ask me about life in the UK and I would explain as best I could. Sometimes African ways & our ways were poles apart. In my thread on my time there I told the tale of the bride price for a wife. There are no words in their language for "love or wife" its like & my woman.
Superstition was rife and risible to us Europeans but we had to take it serious in our day to day dealings with our police as I soon discovered.
So our attitude might be considered paternalistic but with good reason.
The Africans I did not like were the radical politicians who I had to suffer in silence whilst monitoring political rallies. Like the X left wing here, they promised the earth to their would be electorate whilst doing nothing but line their own pockets.
I think listening to Corbyn's garbage he must have attended Lumumba University in Moscow which several of the leading African nationalists did when I was there.
Excellent post which chimes in with what I have read.
And the Belgians would definitely not have been good.
 
I was lucky enough to blag a 2 year post in the Training Wing in BATUK and spend a marvellous couple of years chasing the ghosts of Empire out of the Murthaga Club in Nairobi and the Golf Club in Nanyuki, all from the comfort of the Mt Kenya Safari Club.

It was a curious yet wonderful place; two incidents stick in my mind.

The first was a dinner party I attended; one of the guests was a former British Army Officer who has stayed on when the British left at independence to help the fledgling Kenyan Army. I don’t know how true it was, but prior to Independence the Colonial Civil Service had been tasked by Whitehall with estimating how long it would take to prepare the Country for full independence. A Project Team of sorts was set up and after many months of research a figure of ten years was suggested to ensure an orderly handover of power was achieved.

To their collective horror, their estimate was revised downwards by nine years and they were told to pack their packs in six months.

I have no idea how true it was, but he certainly seemed convinced it was true.

The only other incident I can recall from those heady gin fuelled days was stopping at a crossing in my Land Rover and an elderly Kenyan shouting “Sir! Sir! When will you British come back and free us from this terrible Independence?!”

I didn’t know what to reply to that. So I didn’t.
 

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