Type 4X destroyer?

Whose propulsion system is currently being 'reworked' under Project Napier:


The T26 propulsion system is a combination of diesel electric or gas turbine (CODLOG) which is different to T45.

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why are they crowbarring in extra genes to essentially replace the turbines, rather than fix the intercooler issue?
 
why are they crowbarring in extra genes to essentially replace the turbines, rather than fix the intercooler issue?
As I understand it, the original amount of Diesel Generators fitted didn't generate enough electrical power to meet demand (this includes ship's services requirements as well as those of propulsion), hence the increase. I believe that the intercooler thing is a separate issue.

As I said earlier, the propulsion system on T26 is different in that the DGs are separate to the Gas Turbine; it's effectively two separate means of generating propulsion depending on what evolutions the ship is performing.

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With the shortage of hulls but overbearance of tasks, is it worth exploring things like the Danish Stanflex system?
No. Because they don't use it like the brochures suggest. Short version - theoretically they can interchange. In reality, they don't.
 
why are they crowbarring in extra genes to essentially replace the turbines, rather than fix the intercooler issue?
Because the intercoolers are a minor issue. There are other more significant issues. However, the original concept of DGs only for harbour use has been tested and found to be b0ll0cks.
 
Because the intercoolers are a minor issue. There are other more significant issues. However, the original concept of DGs only for harbour use has been tested and found to be b0ll0cks.
The link above said they were putting in diesels to keep the boat running if the turbine goes down. So why not just lose the turbine? Hack it up into little bits and carry out in buckets if need be.
 
Gary Google is your friend. Look up the shaft horsepower of the great white turbine. Then look up the shaft horsepower of the MTU 4000. Then divide one by t'other.
 
The "could have been done better design issues" are a direct result of the atrophy of design skills and experience in the 90s, which ought to have identified some of the more obvious problems. Repeating that failure and hoping for a different result is probably not a good idea.

The sorry saga of how we got from there to here fills books.
Lessons to be learned, don’t collaborate with the French!

NFR90, Horizon, and then we had to go it alone.
Us and the Yanks seemed to have a pretty good fist on what we wanted before the political bunfights started.
 
Gary Google is your friend. Look up the shaft horsepower of the great white turbine. Then look up the shaft horsepower of the MTU 4000. Then divide one by t'other.

We were supposed to have what the French-Italian Horizon ended up with - cruise on diesels, boost on American GTs.
Funny old world, we were US centric and said nope, and the French said yep.
 
Because the intercoolers are a minor issue. There are other more significant issues. However, the original concept of DGs only for harbour use has been tested and found to be b0ll0cks.

Who was the genius who thought cruising on GTs rather than the diesels was a good call?
 
Published by: Peter Browne, Visual storyteller, Members of Royal Navy Ships & Submarines Past & Present, Facebook, on 06MAY2020.

HMS Dauntless making her way into Cammell Laird to be the 1st type 45 to undergo the Power improvement Programme to fix their infamous warm water operating issues.

The Type 45s use an integrated electric propulsion system (IEP). In layman's terms, the engines create electricity which is (then) used to drive the ship (and power everything else). The Type 45 has 2 x 2 MW diesel generators and 2 x WR-21 gas turbines to provide this power.

The gas turbines have a component called an intercooler-recuperator. This recovers heat from the exhaust and feeds it back into the engine. This increases fuel efficiency and reduces the ship's thermal signature.
The intercooler-recuperators have a major design flaw and fail occasionally, which causes the turbine to shut down. When this happens the entire ship's load is dumped onto the diesel generators, which promptly trip, leaving the ship without power.

The warm water part is that the gas turbines were meant to 'degrade gracefully' in hot climates. That is, above a certain temperature the performance was meant to gradually decline, resulting in a small loss of top speed. What actually happens is that the performance degrades catastrophically and the engine fails.
The solution is to replace the existing 2 diesel generators with 3 more powerful ones. This will ensure that power can be maintained. Rolls-Royce, who make the WR-21s, have also tested a new intercooler-recuperator that is more reliable. There are also likely a myriad of other changes to the ship's systems, but the big one is the new diesel generators.

I should also note that Type 45s have successfully carried out operations globally, including in warm weather environments. Various modifications early on in their careers and workarounds have been made to enable this. But the system onboard remains somewhat fragile and hence the PIP to fix it for good.


95845027_3081776155176889_1471157024799588352_o.jpg
 
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All valid points but.....

There is an AAW variant of T26 on the drawing boards that some else is paying for with very capable radars.
T26 machinery is a very conservative design, unlike the too clever cluster that was T45s propulsion.

Bean counters will note, and a fingers burnt by T45 Admiralty will too, that an AAW T26 might not be as all smiting as a bespoke AAW clean paper design, but it would be fairly low risk, quick to service and quite functional.

Current baseline Weapons fit of 48 Sea Ceptor (or even better The OTH ER version) and 24 Mk 41 VLS cells will provide a quick entry to a TLAM/BMD capable (SM-3) AAW ship.
Well that won't happen then. Far too logical. Have a word with yourself.
 
Some of that explanation resembles the actual cause.

Much more impressive is that D33 actually worked up and sailed again. Serious concerns in Porflot at one point, that she'd never come out of low readiness/ HTS.
 
Some of that explanation resembles the actual cause.

Much more impressive is that D33 actually worked up and sailed again. Serious concerns in Porflot at one point, that she'd never come out of low readiness/ HTS.
They still don’t state the real reason the diesels are shagged.

ETA: brought her back from the Gulf before HTS and she wasn’t in great nick then. That was before STORoBing her to hell.
 
69E13B08-01C0-437D-B9C9-14F096EB906C.png
 
With unicorns?

There are plenty of places where T45 has issues or could have done better. However, the issues are gradually being addressed and the alternate options are now just "if-only?" interweb debating points.

Without design skills and build facilities all the wonderful HMS Armageddon ideas are just ideas - or next years filing cabinet chucking out lists.
Do you know how annoying it is when you insist on bursting into threads and presenting facts rather than uninformed opinion.
You are a real F***ing killjoy to those of us who rely on Wikipedia for our technical knowledge
 
Because the books tend to tell you the formulae - the "how it works". They don't tend to tell you the "why it works" and more importantly, they don't give you the experiential feel for whether a design and/or design calculation looks/feels right.
In a similar vein - I did a stint in a Design office - I would for example sketch up something and chuck in cable sizes - then I would run the calcs of bundles etc to see if I needed to change - others ran the calcs then chose cable sizes.
Purely down to experience on my part I know cable size x is good for y amps less z for a bundle - this unit draws F - call 20AWG because id done it for years in maintenance in mods in repairs etc so knew instinctively what id need - The calcs I did to ensure no curve balls.

I was only an erk my skills were both easily learned and found - Its easy to see how the loss of the more complex skills particularly where an intuitive lets do this as a start point - can lead to a merry go round of conflicting issues just to reach a good start point.
 
Do you know how annoying it is when you insist on bursting into threads and presenting facts rather than uninformed opinion.
You are a real F***ing killjoy to those of us who rely on Wikipedia for our technical knowledge
I will crush your spirit, see you (and your pink electrical overalls) driven before me and hear the lamentations of your women.
 
I will crush your spirit, see you (and your pink electrical overalls) driven before me and hear the lamentations of your women.
Would that not be fairies* aka Radio radar - rather than leccies - seem to recall ( from old lecturers tales of derring do ) Fairies had pink flashes with the other trades being other colours.


*Which I was in addition to being a Greenie ( Leccy) and yes @Graculus greenie is the internationally accepted term - I dunno 1 bloody crab and the rest of us are tarred for life even never served civvy cu mumble mumble grumble mutter rebel ithot a pause etc
 

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