Type 31 Frigate

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
The Derflinger Class ‘Battle Cruisers’ were faster, 27kts vs 20kts, as well armed, 12” guns, and as well and often better (and better disposed) armoured , 12” vs 9-12” as many Battleships in the Home Fleet.

the ‘Battle cruiser’ as we built it, little armour, big guns, fast, were obsolete before they left the slips. The future was the ‘fast battleship’, big guns, all or nothing thick armour and fast. The pre war Derflingers, 1912/13 vote, were very much ‘fast battleships’ and pointed the way to the future.
Week. Those ships were designed and built in response to the Lion class. Despite being 2-3 years newer they were armed with 12" guns rather than 13.5" guns, were a full knot slower in optimal conditions, the main armour scheme was extremely comparable (all or nothing my arse. The belt in Derfflinger was 3.9"-11.8" while Lion was 4"-9"). As with all German ships at the time, I'm willing to bet stores and crew quarters were dire compared to the RN standards, afterall they only needed to cruise into the North sea and pick a fight as opposed to policing the largest maritime empire the world has ever known.

Ultimately calling both types of ships "Battlecruisers" is misleading as they were designed to completely different rolls. The German ships were short endurance commerce raiders needing to be fast protected and sufficiently armed to defeat the light convoy escorts they expected to find, a task they would have done well. Their secondary roll was as fleet scouts during which they got chewed up and suffered horrendous damage. RN ships on the other hand were expected to be a quick reaction force to commerce raiders, fast and manoeuvrable enough to respond, sufficient range and crew endurance to stay on station for a good long time, and armed to ruin the day of anyone they encountered. As the Battle of the Falklands I mentioned above proves, they did that task spectacularly. Their secondary roll of fleet scouting was dubious not because of the ships' designs, but because of the politically connected shit-wit given command of the scouting formation. Had someone competent been in that roll from 1914, who had trained his crews properly, the German battlecruiser force would have had a short and exciting war as despite the heavier levels of protection, it wasn't up to stopping 13.5" and 15" shells our battlecruisers would have been chucking at them.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
The Derflinger Class ‘Battle Cruisers’ were faster, 27kts vs 20kts, as well armed, 12” guns, and as well and often better (and better disposed) armoured , 12” vs 9-12” as many Battleships in the Home Fleet.
Derfflinger, completed November 1914, is an advance over ships a decade older during a time of radical change.

In other breaking news, the Pope is suspected to be Catholic and refuses to deny allegations about vertiginous headgear, while rumours circulate about sylvan defaecation by ursines.

But then HMS Queen Elizabeth was superior to the Nassaus, Helgolands, Kaisers and Königs - clearly the Germans were incompetent idiots when it came to battleships since their older ships were smaller and less powerful than newer vessels.

For a more like-to-like comparison, Derfflinger and her sister Lutzow had an 11" armour belt, eight 12" guns, and was credited by her builders with 26 knots of speed. Comparing her to a British battlecruiser completed at the same time, Tiger had a 9" belt, eight 13.5" guns and could make 28 knots. Both could defeat the others' armour belt at 10,000 yards; Tiger survived Jutland, Lutzow didn't. Not sure this really proves your point.


The pre war Derflingers, 1912/13 vote, were very much ‘fast battleships’ and pointed the way to the future.
If only we'd thought of that and ordered our own fast battleships in 1912.

We could have called them the "Queen Elizabeths" and they'd have outclassed anything that came before them.

Why, oh, why did those incompetent idiots at the Admiralty not think of that?
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
Derfflinger, completed November 1914, is an advance over ships a decade older during a time of radical change.

In other breaking news, the Pope is suspected to be Catholic and refuses to deny allegations about vertiginous headgear, while rumours circulate about sylvan defaecation by ursines.

But then HMS Queen Elizabeth was superior to the Nassaus, Helgolands, Kaisers and Königs - clearly the Germans were incompetent idiots when it came to battleships since their older ships were smaller and less powerful than newer vessels.

For a more like-to-like comparison, Derfflinger and her sister Lutzow had an 11" armour belt, eight 12" guns, and was credited by her builders with 26 knots of speed. Comparing her to a British battlecruiser completed at the same time, Tiger had a 9" belt, eight 13.5" guns and could make 28 knots. Both could defeat the others' armour belt at 10,000 yards; Tiger survived Jutland, Lutzow didn't. Not sure this really proves your point.




If only we'd thought of that and ordered our own fast battleships in 1912.

We could have called them the "Queen Elizabeths" and they'd have outclassed anything that came before them.

Why, oh, why did those incompetent idiots at the Admiralty not think of that?
The follow-on R class were designed to be cheaper and quicker to build than the queen Elizabeth class. And yet they outclassed anything else afloat until the mid 20s. Except the queen Elizabeth class. Clearly the RN design offices were utterly incompetent in designing a cheap and nasty battleship that remained credible to nearly 30 years and for half that time was barely outclassed by the expensive ships they were designed only a couple of years after.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Gents, whilst all of this is interesting and there is merit in the maxim that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, you're falling into the usual trap.

Arguing over WWI-era ships to prove the uselessness of the T31 is rather pointless.

The facts are that the T31 is being procured to a strict budget and that governs all sorts of things, including fit-out. But, we also got a relatively larger hull out of the competing choices and that gives us options going forward.

That one individual continually engages in the "Yes, but over a century ago" gambit is neither here nor there.

The ideal world would see us with 30 T26s. That isn't going to happen.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
Gents, whilst all of this is interesting and there is merit in the maxim that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, you're falling into the usual trap.

Arguing over WWI-era ships to prove the uselessness of the T31 is rather pointless.

The facts are that the T31 is being procured to a strict budget and that governs all sorts of things, including fit-out. But, we also got a relatively larger hull out of the competing choices and that gives us options going forward.

That one individual continually engages in the "Yes, but over a century ago" gambit is neither here nor there.

The ideal world would see us with 30 T26s. That isn't going to happen.
True. I argued on the T26 thread having a bigger hull makes refits much quicker cheaper and easier as you have the space to fit new toys without the design constraints of the new doubris has to be identically sized and shaped to the old doubris. And have broadly similar needs to electrical (and data) cabling, ventilation and cooling etc.

An example of how to do it wrong would be the batch 1&2 T42. Already tightly designed ships, they really were a one out to put one one in class. The only thing that had sufficient room for growth were the Sea Dart missiles themselves because a valve computer turns out to be a lot more volume and weight intensive than even a late 70s transistor computer (never mind modern microprocessors being touted for the cancelled Sea Dart VLS version).

However none of that detracts from that certain poster using incorrect data to draw incorrect conclusions. I cannot comment on the modern kit much but I'm a dab hand at ripping apart the historical stuff!
 

Mattb

LE
Gents, whilst all of this is interesting and there is merit in the maxim that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, you're falling into the usual trap.

Arguing over WWI-era ships to prove the uselessness of the T31 is rather pointless.

The facts are that the T31 is being procured to a strict budget and that governs all sorts of things, including fit-out. But, we also got a relatively larger hull out of the competing choices and that gives us options going forward.

That one individual continually engages in the "Yes, but over a century ago" gambit is neither here nor there.

The ideal world would see us with 30 T26s. That isn't going to happen.
Indeed. I'm still not completely convinced that a fleet of 8/5 high/low T26s wasn't the answer, but at least we should be getting a ship that's both suited to the contemporary operating environment and has the potential to upgrade for future roles. My main worry was that we'd end up with something tiny, and thus both unsuited to long, peacetime patrols and with minimal option to upgrade.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
Or how about this one.....

I send in a swarm of unmanned boats (hi Houthis!) to draw fire and watch until the gun elevates 90 up to recharge the ready use ammunition, then close with my other craft and engage. It takes 30 seconds to reload the 57mm gun when it empties its ready use ammunition - that’s an eternity in a fight.

As has been rather noted by some.... 57mm doesn’t go out to the visual horizon, only half way, 76mm reaches past the visual horizon and shuts down that option.

Anyone would think it’s now dawning on everyone they need as much reach as possible to effectively combat swarm attacks with the emergence of swarming unmanned boats.
Or, alerted by a number of technical means the RN ship either withdraws, or launches its helicopter early to engage a number of them at range, allowing a smaller number to close where they are engaged by smaller calibre weapons and what by then may well be a further iteration of the martlett capability.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
T31 and it’s 57mm gun, (effective range 9,000yds) is going against the ‘we need to be able to kill out to the horizon’ trend.
Conveniently ignoring the T31s OTH organic helicopter and missing a myriad of other capabilities which warships offer.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Conveniently ignoring the T31s OTH organic helicopter and missing a myriad of other capabilities which warships offer.
None of which are the 76mm guns which are the only acceptable solution to any task, therefore your answer is dismissed as irrelevant.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
I don’t often jump in when @PhotEx is digging a hole but....

I believe he is classic trolling. I believe he is spreaDing falsehoods and his anti RN stance makes me question his loyalty to the RN, his employer. I see him as a classic insider threat.

I’m tempted to thread ban him, am I being overzealous or should I let him post for others to knock him down?

Thoughts
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
I don’t often jump in when @PhotEx is digging a hole but....

I believe he is classic trolling. I believe he is spreaDing falsehoods and his anti RN stance makes me question his loyalty to the RN, his employer. I see him as a classic insider threat.

I’m tempted to thread ban him, am I being overzealous or should I let him post for others to knock him down?

Thoughts
Can we keep him dad? He is almost the Redshift of the thread. Almost, far better informed though...
 

Mattb

LE
I don’t often jump in when @PhotEx is digging a hole but....

I believe he is classic trolling. I believe he is spreaDing falsehoods and his anti RN stance makes me question his loyalty to the RN, his employer. I see him as a classic insider threat.

I’m tempted to thread ban him, am I being overzealous or should I let him post for others to knock him down?

Thoughts
Well, given that he’ll be back ten minutes later with a new account it’s hard to see the point, at least currently people can recognise his name and avatar and then ignore his posts (or have the software do the ignoring for them)
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
I don’t often jump in when @PhotEx is digging a hole but....

I believe he is classic trolling. I believe he is spreaDing falsehoods and his anti RN stance makes me question his loyalty to the RN, his employer. I see him as a classic insider threat.

I’m tempted to thread ban him, am I being overzealous or should I let him post for others to knock him down?
How many accounts has he gone through already? Thread ban him and he'll just be back with a different sock.
 
I don’t often jump in when @PhotEx is digging a hole but....

I believe he is classic trolling. I believe he is spreaDing falsehoods and his anti RN stance makes me question his loyalty to the RN, his employer. I see him as a classic insider threat.

I’m tempted to thread ban him, am I being overzealous or should I let him post for others to knock him down?

Thoughts
chill and grab another cup of Timmy’s finest.
Haven’t been near a MoD water cooler for over 6 months.
 
Last edited:

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
chill and grab another cup of Timmy’s finest.
Haven’t been near a MoD water cooler for over 6 months.
Except for your visits to NCHQ, surprised they let you back in.
 
Indeed. I'm still not completely convinced that a fleet of 8/5 high/low T26s wasn't the answer, but at least we should be getting a ship that's both suited to the contemporary operating environment and has the potential to upgrade for future roles. My main worry was that we'd end up with something tiny, and thus both unsuited to long, peacetime patrols and with minimal option to upgrade.
Somebody previously made the argument that a GP frigate such as the T31 is in fact the version that needs to be large since it's the version that will get given all the odd jobs that may require flexible space for some additional personnel or containers for a specific task.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Somebody previously made the argument that a GP frigate such as the T31 is in fact the version that needs to be large since it's the version that will get given all the odd jobs that may require flexible space for some additional personnel or containers for a specific task.
Me, amongst others.
 
Or how about this one.....

I send in a swarm of unmanned boats (hi Houthis!) to draw fire and watch until the gun elevates 90 up to recharge the ready use ammunition, then close with my other craft and engage. It takes 30 seconds to reload the 57mm gun when it empties its ready use ammunition - that’s an eternity in a fight.

As has been rather noted by some.... 57mm doesn’t go out to the visual horizon, only half way, 76mm reaches past the visual horizon and shuts down that option.

Anyone would think it’s now dawning on everyone they need as much reach as possible to effectively combat swarm attacks with the emergence of swarming unmanned boats.
Are you on crack?
 

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