Type 31 Frigate

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
So, a question to the knowledgeable: good choice, bad choice, indifferent? Best choice militarily or wearily and inevitably selected on the basis of industrial work-share?
 
depending on what it gets fitted with (and to be fair it does at least have the space to be fitted with other things later, which the other competitor very much didn't), best choice. Proven design (which we're now going to reinvent the wheel on with some of our stuff) which the Danes have tested to (near) destruction in terms of hull-form survivability. Designed to take hits and keep on fighting, not a glorified OPV.

If I was still in, I'd go to war in one.
 

Majorpain

War Hero
So, a question to the knowledgeable: good choice, bad choice, indifferent? Best choice militarily or wearily and inevitably selected on the basis of industrial work-share?
Best choice, Leander would be a good patrol frigate but if you are paying around the same money than its Arrowhead all the way. Even if the first 5 are bare bones, they can always be upgraded later if necessary which is a lot cheaper and faster than building a new ship or trying to squeeze VLS cells in.

Babcock need to get a shift on and get building these, but the workshare should really take into account what the RN will require in the years ahead so skills can be built up beforehand.
 
So, a question to the knowledgeable: good choice, bad choice, indifferent? Best choice militarily or wearily and inevitably selected on the basis of industrial work-share?
Personal view is a number of different factors.

1. From the off that consortium played a very good political game, hoovering up a wide range of partners. That Babcocks jumped on top of the early work BMT had done which set the pace just helped.
2. They're not BAES. Arguably, the NSBS was designed to give BAES a shoeing and collapse the ToBA. Someone other than BAES winning was always going to be a plus point. That Lairds chose to swap to junior partner role, having started as the lead may be a result of this.
3. The Arrowhead 140 / Iver Huitfeldt design is always going to look more attractive to an RN that understands the consequence of throughlife growth and margin (but doesn't want to pay for it), than the much smaller "Leander". Allegedly the consortium worked very hard persuading a certain sundodging engineer with a stake in the process that theirs was lower risk on this basis.
4. The distributed construction is consistent with the NSBS and lets HMG keep the jocks and the DUP happy. Whether the distributed construction is compatible with a £250M UPC is a different question, which Babcocks are go to have fun answering over the next few years.

Some context :

1. Rosyth has never built a ship. Not just warships, any ships. It has assembled the two carriers, but the heavy lifting in terms of block fabrication and outfit was done elsewhere, specifically Govan, Portsmouth, Birkenhead and Hebburn. The steel units that Babcock did build were the sponsons and even then the steel sub-units were fabricated in Appledore and barged up for assembly on jigs there.
2. That's not to say they can't do it, but the key point is they can't do it efficiently (ie it's challenging to hit the £250M price tag if you do it that way).
3. The smaller blocks you build - which is likely given the capabilities of Fergies and H&W, the less outfit you can do at block stage, which tends to increase the manpower needed for a given outfit task if you have to do it once the ship is erected.

Good luck to them. As Olaf is likely to say, the risk is nominally all on Babcock. Let's see how that survives first contact with lobbying once they hit issues.


As it will be assembled in Fife I now wonder what will happen with FSS.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk
Trying to do FSS in Rosyth was always a barking idea. Not least because the scale of the ship makes the cost challenge of distributed construction even harder - particularly when only Hebburn is light on work at the minute. Which probably reflects the alleged quality of the Team UK FSS submission.
 

Riga

War Hero
@History_Man Your racing certs are looking a bit dodgy at the moment ;)

Arrowhead gives the growth margin and IF they can get it in the water quickly might attracr interest from New Zealand, politics permitting and MIGHT attract future orders fron the RN, money and manning permitting.
 
Last edited:
Sponsored by Lidl, apparently :)
"Three different designs were in the running for the Type 31 contract but they all have something in common - they're cheap.


The price cap of £250m per ship might sound a lot of money but, to put it in context, the bill for the eight Type 26 frigates currently under construction comes to about £8bn.

The extremely tight cost constraints on the new ship have led some critics to describe it as "the Lidl frigate".

Each bidder has tried to keep the price down by basing their designs on successful existing ships rather than starting from scratch.

Babcock's "Team 31" design is derived from the Iver Hutfeldt frigates developed for the Danish navy".



1568283075265.png


Obviously (?!) . . . I/you/we don’t have to worry about the integrity/strength of the roller-shutter doors that enclose those two gaping side apertures containing the “sea boats” (?) . . . but I can imagine if they didn’t get them closed fast enough (or were required to open them!), that in certain sea-states “half-the-ocean” crashing into those spaces (with nowhere to go/escape), will have an “interesting” effect.

+ + + + + + + + + +

The BBC article goes on to say . . . "The ship is sometimes referred to as the Type 31e - the "e" standing for exportability" . . . I did think the "e" orginally stood for economy ?!


 
Last edited:

Daxx

MIA
Book Reviewer
I bet the accommodation is going to be lush. Hammocks in the boat bays?
 
@History_Man Your racing certs are looking a bit dodgy at the moment ;)

Arrowhead gives the growth margin and IF they can get it in the water quickly might attracr interest from New Zealand, politics permitting and MIGHT attract future orders fron the RN, money and manning permitting.
That's a fair one Kromeriz, I didn't see that one coming. I would be very interested to see how the figures stack up. It seems an awful lot of ship for not much money - I know that steel is cheap and air is free...
 

Riga

War Hero
That's a fair one Kromeriz, I didn't see that one coming. I would be very interested to see how the figures stack up. It seems an awful lot of ship for not much money - I know that steel is cheap and air is free...
...and Govt furnished equipment...

I found a friend, a SVK L/Col, in wikileaks, might we see your name crop up in Yellowhammer? Or are you in the Pointyhammer version?
 

Mattb

LE
Obviously (?!) . . . I/you/we don’t have to worry about the integrity/strength of the roller-shutter doors that enclose those two gaping apertures containing the “sea boats” (?) . . . but I can imagine if they didn’t get them closed fast enough (or were required to open them!), that in certain sea-states “half-the-ocean” crashing into those spaces (with nowhere to go/escape), will have an “interesting” effect.
Only if there’s a noticeable horizontal lip below the door, or a vast space behind it.
 
T31e is going to get lots of column inches...
As the £1.25 billion gets left far behind,
And delivery dates slips.
 
T31e is going to get lots of column inches...
As the £1.25 billion gets left far behind,
And delivery dates slips.
BAE best off out of it and concentrate on T26.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

TotalBanker

Old-Salt
Dumb question time, but what do the T26 frigates do that the T31(e) don't, or vice versa? Was there ever a possibility of looking at how many of each were being ordered then just ordering that amount of 1 type? I think, may be wrong, but from what ive read here is it the case the T26 is a jack of all trades, whereas the T31 will have specific builds for anti air, anti surface, anti sub etc? If you could wave your magic wand and have as many as you wanted, say built around a QE carrier group, is that how you'd do it, different types for different roles?
 

2ndrow

Crow
I'm a little confused by the award of Type 31 to Arrowhead? ?? am I alone?

So.... In order to secure the future of British shipbuilding and as part of the Governments National Shipbuilding Strategy

We

1. Use a Danish designed Ship?
2. Use French Command and control systems as we are about to leave Europe. (As the French often place major contracts with British companies )
3. Build the ship in Rosyth - which isn't and never has been a shipyard
4. Expect two bankrupt companies to supply major parts (H&W, Fergies)
5. Ignore all English yards
6. Do anything to exclude BAE Systems

And expect to each ship to be cost limited to £250 million on time and on budget

I don't think i've ever witnessed a National Government do so much to exclude domestic Design Capability and major contractors.

I think the word strategy is not understood by Government or Politicians

I shall observe with interest

Any guesses as to final unit cost and ISD?
 

Attachments

I'm a little confused by the award of Type 31 to Arrowhead? ?? am I alone?

So.... In order to secure the future of British shipbuilding and as part of the Governments National Shipbuilding Strategy

We

1. Use a Danish designed Ship?
2. Use French Command and control systems as we are about to leave Europe. (As the French often place major contracts with British companies )
3. Build the ship in Rosyth - which isn't and never has been a shipyard
4. Expect two bankrupt companies to supply major parts (H&W, Fergies)
5. Ignore all English yards
6. Do anything to exclude BAE Systems

And expect to each ship to be cost limited to £250 million on time and on budget

I don't think i've ever witnessed a National Government do so much to exclude domestic Design Capability and major contractors.

I think the word strategy is not understood by Government or Politicians

I shall observe with interest

Any guesses as to final unit cost and ISD?
It would help if you told us which newspaper you write for...
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
Dumb question time, but what do the T26 frigates do that the T31(e) don't, or vice versa? Was there ever a possibility of looking at how many of each were being ordered then just ordering that amount of 1 type? I think, may be wrong, but from what ive read here is it the case the T26 is a jack of all trades, whereas the T31 will have specific builds for anti air, anti surface, anti sub etc? If you could wave your magic wand and have as many as you wanted, say built around a QE carrier group, is that how you'd do it, different types for different roles?
T26 are primarily ASW ships. And if they hype is only half right, they will be terrifying ASW ships. But they will also pack in the full spectrum of surface ship warfare kit (less BMD) and one turning up in their back yard is sure to the day of any despot in a turban. T31e on the other hand were supposed to be cheap GP frigates that have gradually evolved into seemingly quite capable surface warfare platforms. Or they will be if the large hull with the expensive warship damage control and redundancy are fitted out correctly.

We were supposed to be getting 8 ASW T26 and another 5 GP ones (same ship but without the expensive towed sonar and a few other ASW toys). Then it was just the 8 ASW and 5 other "cheap" GP frigates that became T31. Now it seems T31 has the potential to be worthwhile warships in their own right.
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
T26 are primarily ASW ships. And if they hype is only half right, they will be terrifying ASW ships. But they will also pack in the full spectrum of surface ship warfare kit (less BMD) and one turning up in their back yard is sure to the day of any despot in a turban. T31e on the other hand were supposed to be cheap GP frigates that have gradually evolved into seemingly quite capable surface warfare platforms. Or they will be if the large hull with the expensive warship damage control and redundancy are fitted out correctly.

We were supposed to be getting 8 ASW T26 and another 5 GP ones (same ship but without the expensive towed sonar and a few other ASW toys). Then it was just the 8 ASW and 5 other "cheap" GP frigates that became T31. Now it seems T31 has the potential to be worthwhile warships in their own right.
While bad form to quote yourself, blimey. Look at all the likes and from a number of people that know their onions. Maybe I should start defence blogging/journalism. I suspect I'd be better than the ones writing for the daily fish wrappers.
 

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top