Type 31 Frigate

Given that Arrowhead is based upon a proven, in-service design, that's been through FOST numerous times and Leander is an evolved design thats not (if I understand it) actually in service, it would seem that Arrowhead is certainly mature enough?

Just from OS reporting (Janes and particularly UKDJ) Arrowhead looks the more flexible, with better options for future adaptations, which must be key given we're only going to buy a basic variant at the outset.

But why limit the discussion to just there two designs, the others are just as interesting.
That may all be true of the Ivers, but I was speaking of the "120" as the Huitfeld variant may be off the table if the rumours are true.
 
… with more systems (particularly electrical) outfitted under cover…
Wouldn't the vast majority of the electrical systems, and lots of the other systems, be contained inside the ship? I would have expected the structure to be pretty much completed before fitting out, but even if there's still walls and roofs to go up, surely scaffolding and sheeting can be used to provide shelter.
 
Explain that because I don't recognise as a supporting issue given the size of our current ships?
As these are larger than the current frigates, and cannot be supported in the same facilities. Thus either causing a large infrastructure cost to refit the current docks, or creating significant issues with overcrowding the remaining areas.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
As these are larger than the current frigates, and cannot be supported in the same facilities. Thus either causing a large infrastructure cost to refit the current docks, or creating significant issues with overcrowding the remaining areas.
A T23 Is ~4300tonnes and around 130m, neither of these designs is radically bigger. T26 is 140m and ~6900tonnes and that'll be in the same dockyard/refit complex, so I see no infrastructure or support issues.

I don't follow any argument for overcrowding?
 
Wouldn't the vast majority of the electrical systems, and lots of the other systems, be contained inside the ship? I would have expected the structure to be pretty much completed before fitting out, but even if there's still walls and roofs to go up, surely scaffolding and sheeting can be used to provide shelter.
The point is, the smaller the unit you have to build to, the harder it is to pre-outfit and outfit - it takes significantly more manhours to do. Some of that is unavoidable, but as a general rule, the bigger the unit/block you build, the more outfit you can get on for fewer manhours. Once the hull is erect on the berth or in the dock, access is that much harder.

That's why you see these hoofing great blocks for T45, LPD and QEC, all with lots of pre-outfit fitted - including large chunks of cabling (which is the real manhour driver). One of the issues with QEC build is that while the lower blocks below the hangar deck could be done that way, the decks above the hangar had to be built in smaller, shorter blocks (for a number of reasons), all of which reduced the pre-outfit level achievable.
 
A T23 Is ~4300tonnes and around 130m, neither of these designs is radically bigger. T26 is 140m and ~6900tonnes and that'll be in the same dockyard/refit complex, so I see no infrastructure or support issues.

I don't follow any argument for overcrowding?
To be fair I have read that the 26's wont be able to fit into the Frigate sheds in Guzz.
 
There is no point making a ship that's too small. We learned that with the Blackwoods which were too small to get any new gear on despite them being good sea boats. However, 6,900 tonnes is destroyer territory, not frigate, which would really be around 4,000 tonnes.
 
A T23 Is ~4300tonnes and around 130m, neither of these designs is radically bigger. T26 is 140m and ~6900tonnes and that'll be in the same dockyard/refit complex, so I see no infrastructure or support issues.

I don't follow any argument for overcrowding?

T26 doesn’t sound so big when you say 6,900 tonnes, but at 8,000 tonne full load displacement and 150m length , they are barely a gnats smaller than a T45
 
There is no point making a ship that's too small. We learned that with the Blackwoods which were too small to get any new gear on despite them being good sea boats. However, 6,900 tonnes is destroyer territory, not frigate, which would really be around 4,000 tonnes.
I love this argument. Can you point to a RN classification that says xxxx tonnes = frigate, yyyy tonnes = destroyer? Otherwise you can call a class what you want.
 
The point is, the smaller the unit you have to build to, the harder it is to pre-outfit and outfit - it takes significantly more manhours to do. Some of that is unavoidable, but as a general rule, the bigger the unit/block you build, the more outfit you can get on for fewer manhours. Once the hull is erect on the berth or in the dock, access is that much harder.

That's why you see these hoofing great blocks for T45, LPD and QEC, all with lots of pre-outfit fitted - including large chunks of cabling (which is the real manhour driver). One of the issues with QEC build is that while the lower blocks below the hangar deck could be done that way, the decks above the hangar had to be built in smaller, shorter blocks (for a number of reasons), all of which reduced the pre-outfit level achievable.
Which makes this thing you said difficult to interpret
Which means you can build bigger blocks with more systems (particularly electrical) outfitted under cover. Rosyth (IMO) will struggle to do that, but that will obviously not hurt their build cost because, errrrr big crane and dock? Nowhere near as useful as people think.
Surely if you want to build bigger unit blocks, and you want them not on the ship until they are outfitted, then you need some method of getting those units onto the rest of the ship, so the very things you need are a gbfo crane and a suitably-sized dock. Yet you seem to be criticising Rosyth for having those very things. I'm confused by your seemingly self contradictory argument.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
However, 6,900 tonnes is destroyer territory, not frigate, which would really be around 4,000 tonnes.
Frigates have been 12,000 tons in the past (USS Virginia-class)...
 
Arrowhead looks like cracking capability for T31e's constraints...
 
‘Frigates’ were traditionally warships whose primary role was patrolling and escorting convoys, so ASW and patrolling is a job for frigates.

‘Destroyers’ Were developed to attack Torpodo boats, the anti ship menace of the day, their full name was Torpedo Boat Destroyers. As the main threat to ships evolved from boat launched torpedoes to air dropped ones, the Destroyer evolved to primarily an anti aircraft ship.

Size was never anything to do with it, their purpose defines the classification. The early destroyers were tiny things of 800 tonnes. The 1860 HMS Warrior was a Frigate of 10,000 tonnes.
 
‘Frigates’ were traditionally warships whose primary role was patrolling and escorting convoys, so ASW and patrolling is a job for frigates.

‘Destroyers’ Were developed to attack Torpodo boats, the anti ship menace of the day, their full name was Torpedo Boat Destroyers. As the main threat to ships evolved from boat launched torpedoes to air dropped ones, the Destroyer evolved to primarily an anti aircraft ship.

Size was never anything to do with it, their purpose defines the classification. The early destroyers were tiny things of 800 tonnes. The 1860 HMS Warrior was a Frigate of 10,000 tonnes.
Interesting that Warrior is shorter & narrower (128x18m) than modern designs but weighs more than double.
Doubtless due in no small measure to the iron construction, 36 guns & armour belt.
.
 
Which makes this thing you said difficult to interpret

Surely if you want to build bigger unit blocks, and you want them not on the ship until they are outfitted, then you need some method of getting those units onto the rest of the ship, so the very things you need are a gbfo crane and a suitably-sized dock. Yet you seem to be criticising Rosyth for having those very things. I'm confused by your seemingly self contradictory argument.
The point I'm trying to make is that people think the crane and the dock by themselves are a shipbuilding facility. They're not. Something compounded by the relatively small bays available to build blocks undercover, which means that you can build small units undercover that are craneable, but not sufficiently big blocks to allow a really good level of outfit. You then have to stitch the thing together in an open dock. You can use Rubb tents (we used to do that on the open berth at SHS) but it's sub optimal.

The other thing with a crane lifting blocks is that you need to fab and attach lifting points, which on (relatively) light structure like a small frigate gets tricky for larger, heavier blocks.

It's not that you can't build the thing at Rosyth, it's that you can't do it efficiently, which when you've got a price cap of £250M ea, is a bit of an issue.
 
Less so, IMO. Plenty of space undercover, nice slipway launch, move the blocks to the slipway on KAMAGs. Worked for a 10000te ship last month.

That said, they get their steel components pre-cut as well. It's just they don't have to try and assemble them in two different locations at stages of the build to keep facilities busy.
 
The point I'm trying to make is that people think the crane and the dock by themselves are a shipbuilding facility. They're not. Something compounded by the relatively small bays available to build blocks undercover, which means that you can build small units undercover that are craneable, but not sufficiently big blocks to allow a really good level of outfit. You then have to stitch the thing together in an open dock. You can use Rubb tents (we used to do that on the open berth at SHS) but it's sub optimal.

The other thing with a crane lifting blocks is that you need to fab and attach lifting points, which on (relatively) light structure like a small frigate gets tricky for larger, heavier blocks.

It's not that you can't build the thing at Rosyth, it's that you can't do it efficiently, which when you've got a price cap of £250M ea, is a bit of an issue.
At Govan the different blocks are individually constructed in the Fab line then moved to the Ship Build Outfitting Hall (SBOH) where the major lock out items, cabling and piping are fitted under cover, they are then welded together to create 2 larger Hull sections, these 2 sections and the superstructure, will be mated outdoors - if you drive along the Clyde Expressway you will see the OPV bows sticking out of the SBOH with the vast majority of the ship is complete indoors less the mast - post launch the ship will be alongside scotstoun for fitting out and test and commissioning for another period of time - you need pretty large sheds, machinery and lifting eqpt plus a launch method to put everything together and get it into the water and the bigger it is the more space reqd
 

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