Two soldiers refuse to fight.

#1
Just heard on the BBC that two guys have been sent home for refusing to fight! A Pvt and an Air tech from 16 AA Bde. :mad:

Courts Marshal and a stiff sentence to follow I would think.

I thought our people were made of sterner stuff.
 
#2
That's a bit surprsing, are they experiencing some kind of break down/ depression or the like? ???
 
#3
Well Billy Bragg, that tosser to beat all tossers, was famous as a soldier who refused to soldier, and he was one of Blairs favourite singers/songwriters.

Courts Martial all the way, doshonourable discharge after a few years Colchester.
 
#4
From the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2900963.stm

Two soldiers sent home from Gulf war
Two soldiers believed to be from 16 Air Assault Brigade serving in Iraq have been sent back to their headquarters in Essex.
The two were flown back to Colchester from Kuwait before the war in Iraq started, the Ministry of Defence has confirmed.
Their solicitor said they had been ordered to return after raising conscientious objections to the war, according to a lawyer who has been informed about the case.
A military spokesman denied the two had been flown back to Britain for refusing to fight before the invasion of Iraq.
A Ministry of Defence statement said it had "no record of anybody from 16 Air Assault Brigade returning on grounds of conscientiously objecting to the conflict in Iraq".
The spokesman, who confirmed two soldiers had been sent home at the end of February, said there were many reasons why soldiers were sent back.
These could be medical, compassionate or disciplinary grounds.
A leading lawyer who acts on behalf of service personnel and their families said the soldiers' case was an unusual one.
Justin Hugheston-Roberts works for Forces Law, a nationwide group of 22 law firms, which acts for service personnel.
He has spoken to the solicitor acting for the soldiers.
"The main issue is going to be the individual conviction of the service personnel over and above the requirement to obey a lawful command," he said.
At Colchester Garrison on Sunday no-one would comment.
There are 5,000 men and women from 16 Air Assault Brigade serving in southern Iraq near the city of Basra.
 
#5
At least they had the balls to come out and say that they were objectors. What would have happened if they hadn't had the moral courage to admit it and gone up North and let their mates down at a crucial moment.

I respect them for their honesty but it wont save them from the witch hunt. Its the little pussy's that turn up from phase 2 and go sick with depression after a few months that I detest.
 
V

vespa

Guest
#6
why did they sign up to be soldiers in the first place  ??? soldiering involves war you know  :mad: not piss ups, subsidied holidays and camping trips
 
#8
I can't find any words to excuse thier actions.

I wonder if they have refused to fight in this conflict alone or all conflicts. Post them to Kosova, have them licking mines by morning
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#12
I'm not saying these two are TA but what do you reckon are the chances......?

Not knowing enough about these two guys (age/rank/experience/regular or territorial) it's a little difficult to discuss BUT given the number of TA/RMR/RNR/RAuxAF we've mobilised and generally given that according to John Keegans 'The Face of Battle' the hardiest group of soldiers is the inf. section (actually the optimum size is 5 men) then if you are some inexperienced badly trained STAB mobilised by a computer in Scotland and you get posted to an already  formed unit then it will be difficult to start feeling the loyalties that say ORG feels they should be experiencing and that therefore their betrayal is less of a betrayal...

Not sure I have a point here, but felt that this might have some interesting points for your arguments.

Mr H
 
#13
Mr Happy,

You don't  have a point here and I am sure many people would find your insinuation that these two soldiers are TA in very poor taste. :mad:

On this occasion I would actually go so far as to suggest that you may like to retract your comments.

msr
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#14
MSR,

It started out (my post) as a comment on how given the extra pressure TA guys will be under (lack of experience with leaving family/friends/being in green for more than two weeks etc) that if anyone were to crack then I would expect it to be more TA than reg.  

However bcause of at least the heli-tech guy I would assume he's not TA at all.

I think in my writing and re-writing I've got me text and purpose confused - will an apology from my English teacher suffice?
 
#15
Mr Happy,

" I'm not saying these two are TA but what do you reckon are the chances......? "

No more likely than if they were regular soldiers I would suggest.  

" if you are some inexperienced badly trained STAB mobilised by a computer in Scotland"

In my experience those who were mobilised were selected by their PSI for their trade skills in order to fill a deficiency in the Army's ORBAT.

"and you get posted to an already  formed unit then it will be difficult to start feeling the loyalties that say ORG feels they should be experiencing"

Again, in my experience the formed units that receive TA soldiers are generally very pleased precisely because an empty slot has been filled.  It is up to the receiving unit to ensure that the new bod is slotted in quickly and efficiently because their lives depend on that person doing their job correctly.

"given the extra pressure TA guys will be under...  that if anyone were to crack then I would expect it to be more TA than reg"

Doubtless we will have to wait for the PXRs to come through before the facts are known, but this could be construed as an offensive slur on the TA.

msr
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#16
No more likely than if they were regular soldiers I would suggest.
Do you HONESTLY believe that, I mean you don't have to agree with it as its probably a far more complicated question that either of us could be qualified to answer, perhaps a Masters in group dynamics or something might help BUT then I was quoting/cribbing from the a pretty well informed historian.  

" if you are some inexperienced badly trained STAB mobilised by a computer in Scotland"
In my experience those who were mobilised were selected by their PSI for their trade skills in order to fill a deficiency in the Army's ORBAT.
 I think theyd be some disagreement to this elsewhere on this site AND I presonally don't think its true judging from who I know has gone/turned up and who hasn't or has been turned away..

"and you get posted to an already  formed unit then it will be difficult to start feeling the loyalties that say ORG feels they should be experiencing"
Again, in my experience the formed units that receive TA soldiers are generally very pleased precisely because an empty slot has been filled.  It is up to the receiving unit to ensure that the new bod is slotted in quickly and efficiently because their lives depend on that person doing their job correctly.
I agree whos job it is to bring those troops along/up to speed and so forth but that doesnt mean it happens, nor does it mean that those TA mobilised are happy and want this to be the case.

Doubtless we will have to wait for the PXRs to come through before the facts are known, but this could be construed as an offensive slur on the TA.
 I have others if you have time  ;D but what I am trying to put across is that the TA are more likely to come a-cropper with this sort of thing than others AND that they might have a better excuse, I am not attempting to bait STABs or would be deserters or would be lynchers though I recognise Im doing a good job of it..  :eek:
 
#17
Mr Happy

"what I am trying to put across is that the TA are more likely to come a-cropper with this sort of thing than others"

On what grounds? Personal prejudice?

msr
 
#18
I am TA and i can see why you would think that and I agree, we do get some very unprofessional, drinking club types in the terriers. Bare in mind I know a lot of lads recently mobilised and most wanted to go.

I can't think of any words to excuse these two whoever they are.
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#19
MSR,

Me ex-STAB, I guess I just have either a low opinion or high standards...

With grounds based on experience, knowing human nature and so forth.  Consider it like AIDS, there are high-risk groups and there aren't...

I would hope that I am wrong in this case as it wouldnt shine well on the TA as anything that happens to an ARAB is normal but if it happens to a STAB then they're all the same.

Mr H
 

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