Turkish Army defends secularism

#3
Its already Islamically ruled, democratically of course.

Im with the EU over this, all this fuss over one candidate, the Turkish Army should STFU and stick to barracks.
 
#4
Taz_786 said:
Its already Islamically ruled, democratically of course.

Im with the EU over this, all this fuss over one candidate, the Turkish Army should STFU and stick to barracks.

Awww bless, You miss the Turkish caliph don't you? :twisted:
 
#5
I seriously doubt whether by the time of accession that Turkey will even want to be a member of the EU after the way the organisation has treated them. Will the EU commissioners still be calling for the army to stay out of democracy when Islamic fundamentalists slit the throats of more Christians as happened last week or will they be fretting over Austria's referendum on Turkish accession?
 
#6
The Turkish Army believes itself to be the standard bearer of Ataturk. The EU will be ignored if the Army believes Islamic Radicalists could gain power.
 
#7
evilgenius said:
I wonder what the EU would prefer a member that was a islamic ruled or a temporarily military ruled country?
Obviously the former.

Several EU states have right wing Christian Democratic parties that are almost equivalent politically to the AKP. The AKP have been good for buisness rooting out much of the corruption that military rule made endemic in Turkey. From a Brussels perspective Islam here may well be the solution.

Given Europe's history the EU states are far more adverse to military dictatorships than God botherers getting elected. When you have to weigh up a regime that has an incorrect attitude to sexual politics against one with a history of severe human rights abuse and aggressive genocidal tendencies the choice is obvious.
 
#8
alib said:
evilgenius said:
I wonder what the EU would prefer a member that was a islamic ruled or a temporarily military ruled country?
Obviously the former.

Several EU states have right wing Christian Democratic parties that are almost equivalent politically to the AKP. The AKP have been good for buisness rooting out much of the corruption that military rule made endemic in Turkey. From a Brussels perspective Islam here may well be the solution.

Given Europe's history the EU states are far more adverse to military dictatorships than God botherers getting elected. When you have to weigh up a regime that has an incorrect attitude to sexual politics against one with a history of severe human rights abuse and aggressive genocidal tendencies the choice is obvious.
That might be true from the EU position but it certainly isn't the case for the Austrians. They have seen themselves for centuries as the bulwark against Islamic expansion and they also are to have a referendum on Turkish accession - with right of veto. Any sniff of an Islamic Government and they are bound to block the Turks - no matter what the EU say.
 
#10
I cannot BELIEVE the EU's halfwittedness on this. Turkey's army has always stepped in to prevent islamists from overturning the country's secular constitution, and in the main they do it quickly and cleanly then step down again as soon as an acceptable secular candidate is found.

How quick and clean will it be if the islamists feel they have the support of other countries for their cause? Stupid, stupid, STUPID EU bastards may well cause a civil war. They would do well to remember that Hitler, Mussolini etc. won elections, but their political systems meant they didn't have to bother winning another one. It's a lot easier to break a democracy than to make one.

ARRSEHOLES. :rage:
 
#11
Bert_Preast said:
I cannot BELIEVE the EU's halfwittedness on this. Turkey's army has always stepped in to prevent islamists from overturning the country's secular constitution, and in the main they do it quickly and cleanly then step down again as soon as an acceptable secular candidate is found.

How quick and clean will it be if the islamists feel they have the support of other countries for their cause? Stupid, stupid, STUPID EU bastards may well cause a civil war. They would do well to remember that Hitler, Mussolini etc. won elections, but their political systems meant they didn't have to bother winning another one. It's a lot easier to break a democracy than to make one.

ARRSEHOLES. :rage:
You seem to forget that Turkey when dominated by the Generals carried out the Armenian genocide, ethnically cleansed its milllenia old Greek population and grabbed half of Cyprus in the 70s. Far more frightening to Austrians than the odd dusky bint in a headscarf.

Apart from the founding of the the Republic by the Officer Corps there have been 4 coups in Turkey. The 1980 coup was preceeeded by a decade of chaos in which the military was deeply implicated and followed by 3 years of brutal military rule that was marked by mass arrests, torture and ethnic slaughter.

The coups have been more about assuring the agenda of the far-Right and suppressing democracy in Turkey than protecting the values of the Kemalist Republic.

Some of groups allied with military factions are genuine neo-fascists like the Grey Wolves. You know the sort of chaps who carried out the Kahramanmaraş massacre and that shoot the odd Pope.

The reason the Islamists have gained such ground in Turkey is the military backed extreme Right wiped out much of the Left and Center in the 70s in what amounted to a civil war fought in Turkish cities. The Islamists moved into that vacum.

Parties like the AKP are still reactionaries but have moderated a good deal and are committed to democratic politics. This cannot be said of the Generals who have seen their backstairs grip on power eroded recently by a government commited to the population that elected them rather than the glory of the Republic and personel enrichment.

Turkey under the Generals heels was always a dangerous beast. As Iraq implodes and the Kurds seceed we will shortly be living in very interesting times. The Turks are far more likely to make a grab for the Kirkuk field if the military regain their stranglehold on Turkish politics.

Hysterical twonks who equate all Islamists to 30s Fascists should read a little history. Just recall who Hitler had in mind as a model when he said "no one remembers the Armenians": the Turkish Officer Corps.
 
#13
You seem to forget that Turkey when dominated by the Generals carried out the Armenian genocide,
and for the Big One in 1915 they had German Generals commanding Ottoman troops......

the fact is that Turkey is better when the Army keeps the Islamists at bay; and it would be super if there was an Iraqi Army capable of doing the same; Pakistan seems to need the Army to step in periodically.........it is a Muslim societal trait
 
#14
Putting my realpolitik hat on I'd support the Turkish generals every time. It's not pleasant but its better than the alternative.

I'd also point out that each and every European country has been founded on mass slaughter, often bordering on genocide. No one's bothered because if it's long enough ago it's not genocide, merely history. Just read up on the Thirty Years war leading up to Westphalia for instance. I'm not in any way defending what the Turks did, and their continued denial of the Armenian and Assyrian holocaust is a continued stain on their country. But let's not climb too far up the moral high ground on this one.
 
#15
razorman said:
WhiteHorse said:
Then again, it seems a lot of the Turkish population support the army's views.

Rally to support secularism.
That's all well and good, but there are 70 million people in Turkey. Clearly the AKP party must have a good deal of popular support, otherwise they wouldn't have been elected in the first place.
True, but it would appear more than a million turned out in support today. Also the AKP were not elected as they did not get enough seats and the opposition did not stand, hence all the news.
 
#16
Voyager said:
You seem to forget that Turkey when dominated by the Generals carried out the Armenian genocide,
and for the Big One in 1915 they had German Generals commanding Ottoman troops......

the fact is that Turkey is better when the Army keeps the Islamists at bay; and it would be super if there was an Iraqi Army capable of doing the same; Pakistan seems to need the Army to step in periodically.........it is a Muslim societal trait
Don't get me started on the Pakistani military.

The modern Turkish military is saintly compared with the Pakistanis. The one good thing about the Turkish military is its occasionally pure defence of secular Republicanism and refusal to remain in the set of power for more than a few years.

In contrast a large chunk of the Pakistani military is ideologically at the bleeding edge of the Sunni Jihad and we are currently engaged in a proxy war with them just like the Soviets were back in the 80s. This is most malign form of Islamism; they don't just want Sharia but eternal pointless war against Dar al-Harb. They are nuts.

Back in 71 they were killed about 1.5 million Bangladeshis at a faster rate than the SS slaughtered folk on the steppe. The Indians had to step in to stop the slaughter. Nobody remebers the Bangladeshis.

Pakistan runs a nuclear black market and remains the nation rated by the Pentagon as most likely use a nuclear weapon in a first strike.

Unlike the Turkish army who certainly die to defend their country most of the Pakistanis upper ranks are greencarded and ready bolt to US at the first sign that Indians have finally lost patience with them.

I find it very strange after having just strung up a savage Arab dictator whose lonely virtue was his defence of secularism that folk now are running so scared of moderate Islamists in Ankara that a Junta is preferable.

Maybe Ian Paisley finally having seized power in the Six Counties has put the wind up folk.
 
#17
One_of_the_strange said:
Putting my realpolitik hat on I'd support the Turkish generals every time. It's not pleasant but its better than the alternative.

I'd also point out that each and every European country has been founded on mass slaughter, often bordering on genocide.
Yes, people sometimes forget that San Marino used to have a larger population than China :)
 
#18
Alib - interesting to hear your views on Turkey.

Can I ask your background?

Nothing specific, just general details. If you don't want to reply, no problem. I only ask because I think we'll be hearing quite a bit about Turkey in the future.

Thanks.
 
#19
The army statement was interesting imho, it showed that the Army also sees it self as the defenders of 'Turkish Islam'.

The AKP are Islamist-lite but the Army will always be weary of them and the check that they had in the previous President (staunch secularist) shows in my view a nervousness in the Turkish Army about the direction of the country. The urban elite and the establishment parties have lost out to the AKP, who in actual fact have probably always been more representative of the real Turkey than the cosmopolitan facade as presented by Istanbul and Ankara. Kemalist secualrist values are being undermined and as Turkey re-engages eastwards general cultural trends within Islam will also infilitrate the country. The military also is probably still miffed over the anti-corruption measures that hurt the second income of so many of the military.

If anything the Turkish military seems, if anything, to be going through a period of self doubt and so the attack on the AKP choice of Gul.
 
#20
alib said:
ARRSEHOLES. :rage:
You seem to forget that Turkey when dominated by the Generals carried out the Armenian genocide, ethnically cleansed its milllenia old Greek population and grabbed half of Cyprus in the 70s. Far more frightening to Austrians than the odd dusky bint in a headscarf.

[/quote]

Grabbed half of Cyprus/defended half of Cyprus; Potato/potato; tomato/tomato
 

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