Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by RTFQ, Sep 29, 2005.

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  1. RTFQ


    Ok, it might not happen just yet, but the UK Government has decided that it should be our priority to facilitate Turkey's entry into the EU.

    As I understand it, our stated reason is to avoid a clash of cultures between the West and Islam.

    What nonsense.

    We are seeking exactly that clash, but not in the way one assumes. The west wants a democratic Middle East - and bloody right too - it makes business easier, makes them more disinclined to poke their tongues out over important issues when faced with military action (Iranian Nukes) and I guess we hope democracy (or our version) will provide a stabilising (and secularising?*)influence on the region. Especially when the black stuff runs out and the RPGs hit the fan.

    So the real reasons we want Turkey in the EU?

    -We get to hold them up as an example of what happens to good Muslim States, and provide an incentive for others to reform. I like to call it the Domino Effect.

    -They're holding us to the "Don't feck with northern Iraq and we'll let you in our club" deal made in 2002/3

    -Strengthening the 'Lines of Lubrication' between where the oil lives and our 3.0l TDi engines.

    In my opinion, they're all good-ish reasons, but I'm not sure they're worth the hassle of letting Turkey in. With 70-odd million inhabitants, they have a lot of economic migration to give (oh goody) - and ourselves, germany, france and italy are going to have so much fun with immigrants over the next decade or so, especially when economies start to wobble (some already are). It's going to annoy the greeks and greek cypriotes (I don't care), and they seem singularly unwilling to actually do much reforming beyond the required cosmetic surgery. They approach civil rights the same way we approach Investors In People. They WILL try and solve the kurdish problem eventually - and to think we looked impotent when we tried to sort out non EU members who got all ethnically cleansy. And they will inevitably be torn between the Arab Nations and the EU on the pertinent matters of foreign policy. It will be like letting another France in.

    I also don't think Turkey holds enough sway with the mainstream Muslim Nations to be seen as anything other than a western pet, at worst a Pariah.

    So, am I missing some huge potential payoff for all this?

    *Is that even a word, let alone a valid point?
  2. Turkey is now the only secular muslim state in the region, religion takes second place and that is a start

    the rest of them have come under the sway of mad mullahs
  3. if you believe that, you will believe anything...
  4. Really it is a political game. Turkey will continue to stand at European door many years. There are too many problems with newcomers. East European countries were allowed to join EU because of political reasons (not economical). And what are possible benefits for EU from membership of Turkey?

    It is like a married man promisses a lass to marry. He knows that at least technically is it impossible until he become widower.
  5. For a country with a reasonably similar sized population to the UK (alright they've started to pull away in the last couple of decades) their armed forces are phenomenally bigger. In fact something like a million people are in the military. In the words on one Turkish Officer I spoke to 'we are surrounded by bad neighbours'

    Obviously they have military service and the time they serve is based on educational standards. i.e. the better educated the individual - the less time they have to serve - the more illiterate the longer service (spookily a bit like the RAF!).

    Ever since I watched Midnight Express I swore to myself that there was no way I was ever going to visit - I'll presume my arrse is allergic to latex!
  6. OldSnowy

    OldSnowy LE Moderator Book Reviewer

    Turkey - Not really Arab, for one thing. Been good NATO members for years, ever since Attlee got them in ("Fought against them at Gallipoli. Tough Buggers. Best have 'em in" - or words to that effect). Put their lives on the line supporting us in Korea (Where they had an exceptional record, in PoWs, of rejecting any collaboration - better than the Brits, and far, far better than the Septics').

    So they have problems with the Kurds - and we've not had similar problems? Can't see that we've anything to lecture them on, as regards not caving in to terrorists (Adams, and closer to them, Makarios). If they want to keep the integrity of their country then that's up to them. Anyway, most 'sensible' separatists (in the Basque regions, Catalonia, Scotland, etc) realise that the EU is their best tool to achieving a measure of independence. EU membership could help the Kurds as well.

    Why must we always look for the short-term gain in these things? So, they are notionally Moslem - in about the same way as we are notionally Christian. So what? They are probably at least as democratic as several other countries on the eastern fringe now trying to get into the EU, if not more so. Give them a chance - just because the Germans treat them like dirt, doesn't mean we should as well.

    Mind you, I can see the Austrian's problem - they last fought them off only a few hundred years ago, and of course no-one from Austria would ever think of behaving in a racist or discriminatory manner

    Except for Herr Shickelgruber, of course. And Kurt Waldheim.
  7. also they have a lot of young people who can fill labour shortages in Europe, after falling birth rates is a major problem in the western states meaning no younger people to support the oldest , staff shortages ,also they will also be willing to work in jobs most of us wouldn't consider Bus, tubes, bins, hospitals, street cleaning, etc without which most cities would stop, London is having a major problem in that respect, essential workers can no longer afford to work in London so the city is dying on its feet due to lack of essential workers eventually nothing will move in the city and teh economy will suffer.

    create migrant workers hostels so that they can work here and when their time is up after having sent money home to Turkey they will leave to start a family or build their own houses they go home and a new lot can come in and do the same thing again.

    the CSA probably have put a lot of blokes off having kids and the Govt have been urging us to incease the birth rate at the same time ! :roll:
    CSA is the biggest threat to British society !
  8. KGB_Resident - I'm very impressed you know what a 'lass' is. Top marks!!! - Your English is coming along in leaps and bounds since you joined this site.

    I think its a good idea for Turkey to join the EU.

    RTFQ mentioned the problem with economic migrants. But we we can get around that by having a 10-year moratorium on migrants as part of the accession deal. That'll give us time to develop their economy...

    I reckon Turkey would at least hold some sway with the main Muslim nations. Maybe not in terms of one government talking to another government but as an example to people in the main Muslim nations of what they could have if they cop on to themselves... Besides, even if they don't sway main Muslim nations at least it would be one less hardcore Muslim state to deal with?

    The other hidden advantage for the Brits is that it makes a tightly-knit EU superstate pretty much impossible. Although, this idea was pretty much dead since the French rejected the constitution anyway...

    Finally, my economics is a little hazy but I think the idea their economy improves which is good for us cause they buy lots of stuff from us...

  9. Don't hold your breath about them being allowed in. It is an exceptionally touchy subject in both France and Germany. Germany has the highest proportion of Turkish migrant workers of anyone in the EU. These migrant workers have mostly retained their TU passports - EU membership means they have equal rights to everything that a GE citizen has. This is unlikely to be well received.

    France has an issue with separation of church and state - currently ok in Turkey but has some dodgy moments.

    Interestingly the TU military has the kind of political influence that many ARRSE members would like to have in this country!
  10. the Turkish military see themselves as a guardians of Turkish secularity and K.M.Attaturk's legacy , to date they have fulfilled that function pretty well so far.
  11. Ever since the UK took over the presidency of the EU, the FO have been quietly working away negotiating with the rest of the EU to discover what it would take to garner their support for Turkey's accession to the EU.

    So far it seems as if it's gonna take hell to freeze over! 8O

    Many members are opposed to itt, with Austria leading the no camp. Upto 80% of the Austrian population dont want Turkey to be allowed to join the EU.

    However there may be political reasoning behind this apparent opposition to turkey. Austria want Croatia to be considered for membership, but they still have not met their minimum standards (in terms of tracking down war criminals) to allow them to apply for membership. They may well be using their opposition to Turkey as a way to force Britian into allwoing the croatian application.
  12. RTFQ


    So this much effort on our part suggests that we're looking for new bezzers, especially large ones, within the EU, as the others have decided already whether they like us or not (they don't generally, Lady Di was nice and Manchester United are Gut Ja? But other than that, no love for Johnny Britain. Ungrateful gits).
  13. Or could it be the pressure applied from across the pond to allow Turkey into the EU so that their is a greater leaning towards pro-american policies from the EU (ie outnumber "old Europe")??? :twisted:
  14. RTFQ


    So we can expect Turkey to suddenly get lots of shiny stuff from the Yanks as soon as they join, plus a visit from Presid- sorry Secretary Rice, closely followed by US authorisation to use the phrase "War on terror" in it's dealings with the Kurds. Probably with weapon systems bought from BAe Systems.
  15. OldSnowy

    OldSnowy LE Moderator Book Reviewer

    Ah, Croatia - they would be pals with the Austrians, wouldn't they? Memories of the red and white chequered insignia on the Me109s, and on the patches of certain SS Units...

    It's prejudice, pure and simple. The Germans still don't allow Turks to become citizens - the Blood Test still applies, I think. THe Austrians are even worse. Turkey is probably as 'european' in attitude as Romania or Bulgaria, and has a better climate as well!

    Let 'em in, if only to upset the Frogs.