Turkey v YPG

Posted on all three Turkey/Syria/Kurdish threads . . .


Published by: Elisabeth Behrmann, and Taylan Bilgic, BLOOMBERG, on 15 October 2019.

VW Postpones Decision on $1.4 Billion Turkey Car Plant.

+ Carmaker says it’s concerned about current developments.

+ VW set up Turkish unit this month, paving way for car factory.

Volkswagen AG delayed a decision on a 1.3 billion-euro ($1.4 billion) auto factory in Turkey after the country’s military action in northern Syria prompted an international outcry.

The German carmaker established a Turkish unit in the western city of Manisa in early October, paving the way to begin producing cars in the country. The plant postponement may come as a blow to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and to Turkey, which counts Germany as its largest trading partner.

“We’re closely monitoring the situation and are concerned about the current developments,” VW said Tuesday, adding that the decision to delay was made by the management board.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel called for an immediate end to Turkey’s military operation in northern Syria during a weekend phone call with Erdogan, reinforcing comments by European Union member states and the bloc’s foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini. The EU, while condemning the offensive, has so far stopped short of imposing significant sanctions.

Read more: Europe’s Embargo Threat Over Syria Attack Rings Hollow in Turkey

The plan to make 300,000 cars in Turkey, creating 5,000 jobs, would expand VW’s total number of factories worldwide to 123 and create a bridgehead to grow sales across Eastern Europe and the Middle East. The world’s biggest carmaker has struggled to compete with Asian rivals in those markets because of high costs at its factories in Western Europe. VW also considered sites in Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania and North Africa.

This is a “huge blow if this does not happen,” said Tim Ash, a strategist at BlueBay Asset Management in London. It raises the question of whether Turkey is becoming too big a risk for for investors, he added.

Industrial giants Daimler AG, Siemens AG, Continental AG and Robert Bosch GmbH operate plants in Turkey, alongside other global manufacturers including Ford Motor Co. and Toyota Motor Corp.

Dogus Otomotiv, the Turkish distributor of VW vehicles, fell as much as 6.5% in Istanbul trading after the news, and was 0.8% lower at 6.59 liras at 11:37 a.m. Turkish time.

Trump Restraint on Turkey Sanctions Leaves Congress Wanting More.

The U.S. government on Monday called on Turkey for “an immediate cease-fire” in Syria as it announced sanctions on three senior Turkish officials and sharply increased tariffs on steel in response to the military operation launched by Ankara last week.

“It’s important that Turkey brings the Syria operation to a close as soon as possible and works to tone down geopolitical noise,” said Ash. “Tit-for-tat sanctions now would be very unhelpful and just further inflame things and put more investors off.”

View attachment 423222

 
I did not know that.

For as long as I have been interested, I understood it was the UK and France who were responsible for the “carve-up” of the Middle East, after WW1 . . . and all the subsequent unsatisfactory relationships, particularly with regard to the disenfranchised Kurds.


View attachment 423202

Fate of the Treaty
The terms of the Treaty of Sèvres were far more severe than those imposed on the German Empire by the Treaty of Versailles.[22][23] France, Italy, and Great Britain had secretly begun the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire as early as 1915. The open negotiations covered a period of more than fifteen months, beginning at the Paris Peace Conference. They continued at the Conference of London, and took definite shape only after the premiers' meeting at the San Remo conference in April 1920. The delay occurred because the powers could not come to an agreement which, in turn, hinged on the outcome of the Turkish national movement. The Treaty of Sèvres was annulled in the course of the Turkish War of Independence, and the parties signed and ratified the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 and 1924. Not all signatories of the Treaty of Sèvres were parties to the Treaty of Lausanne, nor was there a valid international act of annulment of the Treaty of Sèvres. Therefore, the Treaty of Sèvres remains a valid instrument of international law, although the Lausanne signatories have chosen not to implement it.

This is why the so-called Sykes Picot Line is an historical artifact; there were subsequent events that had a greater impact on the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. And this is why I mentioned in an earlier post that the current situation is not the first time the Kurds feel that they have been abandoned by the US, but it is frequently overlooked. So it's always England's fault...
 
I don't know if you served in the Balkans in the '90s (I didn't BTW), but there are similarities with the way that the West categorised 'Serbians Bad', 'Bosnians Good', 'Croatians, meh'.
I recall attending an incident in Western Kosovo (near Peç) in the Italian sector when the UÇK (KLA) had killed a Serb family and burned their house and slaughtered their animals; a Kosovan Serb quipped 'I bet you wished that we'd finished the job'.'
 
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Oyibo

LE
I recall attending an incident in Western Kosovo (near Pec) in the Italian sector when the UCK (KLA) had killed a Serb family and burned their house and slaughtered their animals; a Kosovan Serb quipped 'I bet you wished that we'd finished the job'.'
Slightly after my time in the army, but a friend showed me photos of some of the Serb families murdered there. He had an abiding hatred of the Albanians.
 
Okay,you go on believing that America's credibility has not been dumped then. I mean, it was only 14,000 Kurdish fighters who died fighting IS for you, eh?

Oh, and for what it's worth I think the same thing about the UK and Europe, we should be f ucking ashamed of ourselves.
They died fighting the Kurdish cause - it just so happened it was the U.S’s cause too.

Easy solution- let’s drop a few hundred U.K soldiers to keep them apart indefinitely...

There are no easy choices - and staying for indefinite period using U.S blood and money was not the choice made.
 
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roninxix

War Hero
I know this is Current Affairs so please excuse this entry if rather a tad blunt. **** them. **** every single one of the factions. Having spent time in Mosul and Sinjar post ISIS occupation and had to put up with every denomination of militia, “police” force, army unit, religious nut, Army of the Peacock and general mongo whatever happens in that region is deserved across the board.

Let them get on with it and destroy themselves whilst I sit at home and enjoy my pipe
 
Let them get on with it and destroy themselves whilst I sit at home and enjoy my pipe
That is always a powerful temptation. Very unfortunately there are often wider geopolitical ramifications that need to be taken into concern.

In the current case the power vacuum that is resulting in Russian and Iranian expansion of influence. Both of whom are malign with seriously bad human rights records, and in Iran’s case direct links and history of financing terrorist groups, all of which are virulently ant-Western.

The US by size, concern for indivual rights and freedoms, and economic muscle has for years been the world’s policeman. And despite the contempt many feel towards it and its various Presidents, is hugely preferable to the various other superpowers who would supplant it. They are, fairly naturally, beginning to feel a serious bout of ‘ Doner fatigue’ in money and more importantly American lives, when their various ‘allies’ in NATO for example are failing to meet even the fairly modest requirements that they all volunteered to be responsible for.

The present situation created by Trump, has in part been due to a serious election pledge made by him to to his voters to bring US personnel back from foreign wars, a small and I think very overlooked point. A great many US citizens feel exactly the same way. “Why should we be spending billions and losing US lives in various sh*tholes around the world. Let the people in that region sort that crap out.

And unfortunately we in Europe are very effected by the dystopian crap carrying on on OUR doorstep and the massive influx of quite frankly pretty savage refugees which have been flooding into Europe at in ever increasing numbers in recent years, bringing with them their less than polite habits, religion and feuds with them.
 
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Slightly after my time in the army, but a friend showed me photos of some of the Serb families murdered there. He had an abiding hatred of the Albanians.
I had similar experiences with the Croats behaving rather badly, after they had being lauded by the western media.. Then the poor Bosnian muslims were the new poster child for the media and yet a lot of intelligence existed, that the media didn't want to investigate, that they weren't shy about brutality or manipulating the press..... The truth is, the only difference between the Assad, SDF, ISIS and the Kurds is the degree of power they can wield and how much they can gull the media.
 
I had similar experiences with the Croats behaving rather badly, after they had being lauded by the western media.. Then the poor Bosnian muslims were the new poster child for the media and yet a lot of intelligence existed, that the media didn't want to investigate, that they weren't shy about brutality or manipulating the press..... The truth is, the only difference between the Assad, SDF, ISIS and the Kurds is the degree of power they can wield and how much they can gull the media.
You have evidence of the SDF and using CW against their own population?
 
That is always a powerful temptation. Very unfortunately there are often wider geopolitical ramifications that need to be taken into concern.

In the current case the power vacuum that is resulting in Russian and Iranian expansion of influence. Both of whom are malign with seriously bad human rights records, and in Iran’s case direct links and history of financing terrorist groups, all of which are virulently ant-Western.

The US by size, concern for indivual rights and freedoms, and economic muscle has for years been the world’s policeman. And despite the contempt many feel towards it and its various Presidents, is hugely preferable to the various other superpowers who would supplant it. They are, fairly naturally, beginning to feel a serious bout of ‘ Doaner fatigue’ in money and more importantly American lives, when their various ‘allies’ in NATO for example are failing to meet even the fairly modest requirements that they all volunteered to be responsible for.

The present situation created by Trump, has in part been due to a serious election pledge made by him to to his voters to bring US personnel back from foreign wars, a small and I think very overlooked point. A great many US citizens feel exactly the same way. “Why should we be spending billions and losing US lives in various sh*tholes around the world. Let the people in that region sort that crap out.

And unfortunately we in Europe are very effected by the dystopian crap carrying on on OUR doorstep and the massive influx of quite frankly pretty savage refugees which have been flooding into Europe at in ever increasing numbers in recent years, bringing with them their less than polite habits, religion and feuds with them.
In reality, its probably not wider geopolitical anything... I am convinced the media determine what is, or isn't a conflict to involve ourselves in and then set unachievable conditions, which generally bar the ordinary politician from getting out of the fire.

People like trump are the only type capable of sticking two finger up at the 'something must be done' brigade of armchair snivellers.
 
Do you have evidence that the SDF, Kurds or anyone else for that matter with access to CW, wouldn't use them in a pinch ?
That wasn't your point though was it? You said there was no difference between Assad and the SDF. Assad has used CW on his own population. The SDF have not.

I have experience of the SDF as well. From my understanding they have no access to CW and I'm not aware of any attempts to access CW, unless of course you know better?
 
I think his point is brutality and manipulation of the press in general - you can unpick the degree and nature of that brutality from there...
I'm not doubting brutality and mentioned this on the Syrian thread about various indigenous allies committing atrocities, albeit the western ones seem to be investigated.

Lumping Assad in the same space as the SDF, when the JIM have confirmed CW use by that regime and IS is not comparable imo. There's brutality and there's using CW on civilians. There is a difference hence why there is the CWC.
 
I think his point is brutality and manipulation of the press in general - you can unpick the degree and nature of that brutality from there...
The intent to do harm, exists on both sides and I trust neither side to abide by the rules of war, as they are largely a fiction in the ME.... The moral remains, to keep well out of the mire.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
You have evidence of the SDF and using CW against their own population?
I would counter by offering the view that if someone uses CW on someone else then the first person hardly considers the second person to be his own.
But then again I am a bit of an isolationist!
 
I would counter by offering the view that if someone uses CW on someone else then the first person hardly considers the second person to be his own.
Quite possibly. He seems happy nearly 460K dead, with 50% of his population displaced internally and externally, with the West piling money into Lebanon etc. to support those displaced abroad.
But then again I am a bit of an isolationist!
There's a lot of it about. But there was also a unanimous UNSC Resolution to defeat IS in Iraq and Syria. They may have lost their 'Caliphate' but to coin a phrase 'they haven't gone away'.
 
In reality, its probably not wider geopolitical anything... I am convinced the media determine what is, or isn't a conflict to involve ourselves in and then set unachievable conditions, which generally bar the ordinary politician from getting out of the fire.
Heartily concur.

I am convinced that there has been both a marked decrease in the quality of newspaper reporting, and a huge increase in the toxicity, false, incorrect, poorly researched, slanted.

Though always present, seems recently to have increased in virulence in direct ratio to its plunging quality.
 
Heartily concur.

I am convinced that there has been both a marked decrease in the quality of newspaper reporting, and a huge increase in the toxicity, false, incorrect, poorly researched, slanted.

Though always present, seems recently to have increased in virulence in direct ratio to its plunging quality.
As scalie said, ISIS hasn't gone away.... But when you think about it, Trump has now put that ball firmly in the court of assad, Russia and turkey to sort out. What has America lost? the political capital of not being perceived as everyones patsy.

The Russians in future might reconsider their activities, when the ME begins another cycle of stupidity that might blow back onto them.
 

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