Turkey v YPG

They did acquire huge stocks of gear from the retreating Iraqi Army, a lot of it came from there
Indeed, we also found Javelins and 'Chinese' recoilless rifles. According to the Kurds these had probably been taken from the Iraqis. They were adamant that the MKEK weapons had had a more direct route to the IS.

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MoleBath

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Ive oft wondered how much benefit Turkey is to NATO

It controls the Bosphuros* but that a bit meh I always think because the med leads only to 2 other choke points.

Personally I think keeping them in relates more to its spats with Greece - Russia could and would use a neutral Turkeys' animosity with Greece to suck NATO into a pointless conflict

*speelung
# The Montreux convention of 1936 has stabilised the Black Sea to a degree , interesting distinction between the riparian and non riparian signatories
 
Trump now announcing sanctions against Turkey Assad forces now recapturing Long lost Territory.
The Whole thing now Spiralling out of control.
Trump Now regretting his Decision?
 
I wonder if the US will do anything to protect assets in Kurdish areas and by anything I include drone strikes?
Just look at the Montagnards and Hmong to see what we will do. the Kurds are hosed
 
And if a wholesale slaughter of Kurds happens I can't see the west sitting around entirely haplessly. One good giggle might be booting Turkey out of NATO, at which point I can see the Russians wading in and giving the Turks a slapping.
Read article 13 NATO Charter. No mechanism in the treaty to boot out a member. A member can leave after one years notice
 

Londo

LE
I'm not sure that the other members of NATO are ready to agree to expelling Turkey either. There is the long term to consider, and Turkey is more useful as an ally on the south-east flank of Europe than as an enemy.
My gut feeling is that Turkey will not be a friend forever and one day will be an enemy . Perhaps what is happening now is the start of that .
 
Which proves defacto the Eu and Schengen was a sh1t idea of the lowest order!
Edited to add it did nothing to prevent the swamping of south coast seaside towns by these unable to practise medicine doctors who now work as taxi drivers!
We are not and never have been a signatory of Schengen. Admitting street corner hangers out is almost entirely our own fault for doing border control on the cheap (or nor doing it because the EU didn’t make us).
 

Oyibo

LE
Just look at the Montagnards and Hmong to see what we will do. the Kurds are hosed
Syrian Kurds probably are. Iraqi ones will be fine (as long as they do not fight between their factions).
 

TamtamPWRR

War Hero
Whatever happens with Syria, Trump has taken America's reputation as a a reliable ally and dumped it in the f ucking bin. This will affect America's contest with China big time, as crucial American allies such as South Korea and Japan will now be doubting America's word. Maybe that is a bit of comfort for the Kurds, knowing that America has hurt itself so badly from this. F ucking lunacy, what the f uck has happened to America?
 
Whatever happens with Syria, Trump has taken America's reputation as a a reliable ally and dumped it in the f ucking bin. This will affect America's contest with China big time, as crucial American allies such as South Korea and Japan will now be doubting America's word. Maybe that is a bit of comfort for the Kurds, knowing that America has hurt itself so badly from this. F ucking lunacy, what the f uck has happened to America?
What word did we give the Kurds? Try as I might I cannot find any treaty, or promises from Obama in 2009 on, or trump to providing Perpetual Air Support, or a homeland. Can you link it up?

South Korea, Japan are full fledged Nation with defined borders and US bases and units stationed there for almost 74 years in Japans case.

Odd the same people who kvetch endlessly that the trump is a warmonger are upset because trump will not go to war with turkey or Syria How many of you are willing to pick up a weapon and fight the turks for a Kurd?
 

TamtamPWRR

War Hero
What word did we give the Kurds? Try as I might I cannot find any treaty, or promises from Obama in 2009 on, or trump to providing Perpetual Air Support, or a homeland. Can you link it up?

South Korea, Japan are full fledged Nation with defined borders and US bases and units stationed there for almost 74 years in Japans case.

Odd the same people who kvetch endlessly that the trump is a warmonger are upset because trump will not go to war with turkey or Syria How many of you are willing to pick up a weapon and fight the turks for a Kurd?
Okay,you go on believing that America's credibility has not been dumped then. I mean, it was only 14,000 Kurdish fighters who died fighting IS for you, eh?

Oh, and for what it's worth I think the same thing about the UK and Europe, we should be f ucking ashamed of ourselves.
 
Okay,you go on believing that America's credibility has not been dumped then. I mean, it was only 14,000 Kurdish fighters who died fighting IS for you, eh?

Oh, and for what it's worth I think the same thing about the UK and Europe, we should be f ucking ashamed of ourselves.
Good point.
A question is, can we intervene in, say, the ME, if the US isn't on board? US sanctions may soon end the Turkish attacks but, if the US had never sent troops and aircraft to Syria, how different would the humanitarian crisis have been?
I am not sure that we are capable of doing what the US has done in Syria, in terms of demand placed upon resources. Perhaps not even with the help of France, etc.
The impact of the US decision on future conflicts could be huge.
 
Okay,you go on believing that America's credibility has not been dumped then. I mean, it was only 14,000 Kurdish fighters who died fighting IS for you, eh?

Oh, and for what it's worth I think the same thing about the UK and Europe, we should be f ucking ashamed of ourselves.
They were fighting to establish a Kurdish state; this involved both defeating IS and displacing the remaining Syrian Arabs. Don't be taken in by the doughy, plucky Kurds as some sort of Levantine equivalent of the gurkhas. PYD (like the PKK) are a Marxist group with good PR and enormous territorial ambitions.

Al Assad may ne helping them out now the Americans are leaving but I wouldn't count on the establishment of a Syrian Kurdish autonomous region any time soon, whilst Turkey continues to lose what few friends it has through this act of enormous self-harm.
 
The Turks, creating a buffer zone by pushing the problems away. Will that become a client state such as Israel and South Lebanon?
I believe that is the plan and it is about as likely to work as South Lebanon did. On top of his desire to liquidate the Kurdish problem Erdogan desperately wants somewhere to dump his refugees because a) they aren't Turks and b) he can't afford them.
 
They were fighting to establish a Kurdish state; this involved both defeating IS and displacing the remaining Syrian Arabs. Don't be taken in by the doughy, plucky Kurds as some sort of Levantine equivalent of the gurkhas. PYD (like the PKK) are a Marxist group with good PR and enormous territorial ambitions.

Al Assad may be helping them out now the Americans are leaving but I wouldn't count on the establishment of a Syrian Kurdish autonomous region any time soon, whilst Turkey continues to lose what few friends it has through this act of enormous self-harm.
Well if they're Marxists that settles everything doesn't it, gas them all now, and nuke the remains.

In a world where it's clear national boundaries need to be divided along perceived racist lines to avoid pogroms against minorities the Kurds got the short end of the stick in 1919. About the only person not to take a swing at them was the great Satan Saddam Hussein. Funny that, how such an evil man could run a country that was so tolerant of a number of minorities, but hey ho he was the target of the US Neo-cons so he had to go.
 

TamtamPWRR

War Hero
Well if they're Marxists that settles everything doesn't it, gas them all now, and nuke the remains.

In a world where it's clear national boundaries need to be divided along perceived racist lines to avoid pogroms against minorities the Kurds got the short end of the stick in 1919. About the only person not to take a swing at them was the great Satan Saddam Hussein. Funny that, how such an evil man could run a country that was so tolerant of a number of minorities, but hey ho he was the target of the US Neo-cons so he had to go.
Erm, Saddam gassed them in 1988.
 
Good point.
A question is, can we intervene in, say, the ME, if the US isn't on board? US sanctions may soon end the Turkish attacks but, if the US had never sent troops and aircraft to Syria, how different would the humanitarian crisis have been?
I am not sure that we are capable of doing what the US has done in Syria, in terms of demand placed upon resources. Perhaps not even with the help of France, etc.
The impact of the US decision on future conflicts could be huge.
I would say a far bigger question is should we. Just because we have the military muscle [and actually of course we don't] what right or reason do we have to continue to pretend to be an imperial power f*cking up other countries because we think it suits us.

The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan ought to be seen as: -
We aren't wanted
We don't understand the problems
We don't have the military capability to achieve anything even if you ignore points 1 and 2
There is no gain from any such operation for the country as whole economically or the forces militarily

From which the obvious conclusion is "Keep the F*ck out of it".
 
Erm, Saddam gassed them in 1988.
Memory must be slipping, I though that was the marsh Arabs in the South; however that reinforces my first point, in a world where you need your own nation to be safe the Kurds were denied their's in 1919
 

TamtamPWRR

War Hero
Memory must be slipping, I though that was the marsh Arabs in the South; however that reinforces my first point, in a world where you need your own nation to be safe the Kurds were denied their's in 1919
Unless you were from his own Al Tikriti tribe, Saddam was an equal opportunities oppressor.
 
I would say a far bigger question is should we. Just because we have the military muscle [and actually of course we don't] what right or reason do we have to continue to pretend to be an imperial power f*cking up other countries because we think it suits us.

The lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan ought to be seen as: -
We aren't wanted
We don't understand the problems
We don't have the military capability to achieve anything even if you ignore points 1 and 2
There is no gain from any such operation for the country as whole economically or the forces militarily

From which the obvious conclusion is "Keep the F*ck out of it".
Agreed.
We (government) needs to think before it speaks, too. At the time of the Arab Spring, statements were made, re. Libya and Syria, which may have created the impression that we would support the uprisings. I don't think the statements calmed the situation in either country. The statements were probably not of major importance, but they had some influence. They gave some protesters hope.
 

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