Turkey / Libya crisis?

I don’t know, you decide. Personally I think it was stupid of us to take the pressure off French ambition, but I do like to keep balance. But they really have nothing to offer us other than the emasculation of our own ambition. It’s a dirty word these days for the UK, but so far I’ve heard vey little about Dutch, Belgian, French, Spanish, Italian or Portuguese colonialism. Seems the most successful take the flak.
I mean it’s worth recalling that HRE came to an end when Napoleon ended it, having executed a king they then Permitted Napoleon to call himself emperor. We’d faught the 100 years war over their claims to our throne, The seven years war in their attempt to oust us from our colonies plus their attempts in Europe, then the Napoleonic wars for exactly that reason. Crimea was a bit of a faux pas wasn’t it?
It amazes me that when all this Empire bollocks keep rearing it's head, the Ottomans don't even get a mention yet even the briefest of glances at their 'Greatest Hits' would have the average modern liberal weeping into their Soy Latte.

I guess we're an easy target because we we were, by far, the most successful, most far reaching, most influential and very much the makers of the modern world. It's a shame we can't celebrate our achievements when you have utter morons like Dianne Abbott saying 'on the balance of things...' and being allowed to hold Mao up as some sort of ambition. It's pathetic - but we only have ourselves to blame for allowing it to happen.
 
It amazes me that when all this Empire bollocks keep rearing it's head, the Ottomans don't even get a mention yet even the briefest of glances at their 'Greatest Hits' would have the average modern liberal weeping into their Soy Latte.

I guess we're an easy target because we we were, by far, the most successful, most far reaching, most influential and very much the makers of the modern world. It's a shame we can't celebrate our achievements when you have utter morons like Dianne Abbott saying 'on the balance of things...' and being allowed to hold Mao up as some sort of ambition. It's pathetic - but we only have ourselves to blame for allowing it to happen.
It's called an easy target for the morally vacuous. It's been that way since Nuremberg and it was scurrilous for that reason if nothing else. Now there's a couple of people on ignore with me because they like to pick a fight with the obviously contentious. But Stalin as Winner gets off with Killing X million people on the back of communism, similarly Mao and Pol Pot. The ancient Greeks and Romans had a penchant for cruelty you wouldn't believe yet we try to emulate their culture. Ottomans could be just as barbaric to use it in the roman sense. But lets marvel at the Topkapi Palace. Just because DA can string two words together- just- doesn't mean she actually understands anything other than the point she wants to make for her electorate.
 

Yokel

LE
Is he a mercenary or has Vlad sent aircraft to Libys? Are any of the states near Libya willing to offer a base for Russian aircraft?

Any idea what aircraft the pilot was flying or who shot him down, and what weapon system downed him?

Was the aircraft pro or anti Government?
 
Likely (if it was shot down and is in Libya), Mig-29 or Su-24. LNA (Haftar’s lot) against the GNA (supported by Turkey).

Surprised he didn’t film the burning wreckage, so it could’ve been a drill/exercise. I note the beacon pinging on his SARBE equivalent.
 
While may be right about it lacking credibility, if Erdogan chooses to continue to meddle in Libya, no matter what the internal politics of the country, he can keep feeding Syrian and other mercenaries into the fight to keep things in a state of flux.

'Statements by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, hours after the UN mission in Libya announced that the 5 + 5 military committee had reached an agreement on a permanent ceasefire, included a veiled threat to resume fighting.

'Ankara is obviously disgruntled by the agreement, since one of the most prominent items in the deal is expelling all mercenaries from the country, which is aimed at ending Russian and Turkish presence and influence in Libya.

'Erdogan described the ceasefire agreement as lacking in credibility and said that time will show its reliability. His statements were in response to questions from the press as he was coming out from performing Friday prayers in a mosque in Istanbul.'


 
While may be right about it lacking credibility, if Erdogan chooses to continue to meddle in Libya, no matter what the internal politics of the country, he can keep feeding Syrian and other mercenaries into the fight to keep things in a state of flux.

'Statements by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, hours after the UN mission in Libya announced that the 5 + 5 military committee had reached an agreement on a permanent ceasefire, included a veiled threat to resume fighting.

'Ankara is obviously disgruntled by the agreement, since one of the most prominent items in the deal is expelling all mercenaries from the country, which is aimed at ending Russian and Turkish presence and influence in Libya.

'Erdogan described the ceasefire agreement as lacking in credibility and said that time will show its reliability. His statements were in response to questions from the press as he was coming out from performing Friday prayers in a mosque in Istanbul.'


Presumably Turkey agreed the UN proposals and was party to the agreement?
 
Presumably Turkey agreed the UN proposals and was party to the agreement?

And why would they be: the agreement is between the UN-recognised GNA and Haftar's LNA. As there's an arms embargo on Libya :oops:, there are no other parties involved in a peace deal for a civil war.
 
And why would they be: the agreement is between the UN-recognised GNA and Haftar's LNA. As there's an arms embargo on Libya :oops:, there are no other parties involved in a peace deal for a civil war.
Merely a logical extension of the fact that neither the Haftar side or the Tripoli side would act unilaterally. Embargoes I take with a pinch of salt, they are verifiably unenforceable despite end user certs and undertakings. You can bet your bottom dollar that both sides had supporters input, the principles depend on their money.
 
A re-run of the Turkey-France incident earlier in the year?

'Turkey accused the German navy on Monday of conducting an "unauthorised" search on a Turkish-flagged cargo vessel in a bid to enforce a United Nations arms embargo on Libya.

'But the European Union's Operation Irini -- tasked with halting arms shipments to the strife-torn north African country -- said it had made a "good faith" effort to get Turkey's consent for the inspection and aborted it as soon as Ankara made its objections clear.

'The Turkish foreign ministry said Germany's Hamburg frigate stopped and searched the Roseline A commercial vessel without permission on Sunday evening off the coast of Greece's Peloponnesus peninsula. Footage filmed by the vessel's crew and aired repeatedly on Turkish television showed a quarrel between crew members and armed German soldiers who landed on the ship from a helicopter.

'The Turkish foreign ministry said the ship was carrying paint and humanitarian supplies headed to the Libyan port of Misrata. "This intervention was carried out with the consent of neither our country as the flag state nor the ship's captain," the Turkish ministry said. "I am strongly condemning this unlawful intervention," Turkish Vice President Fuat Oktay added.

'But both the operation's European command and officials in Berlin said Turkey raised its objections only after the German soldiers had boarded the vessel. "Everything went exactly according to protocol," a German foreign ministry spokeswoman said. Operation Irini said in statement that it had "made good faith efforts to seek (Turkey's) consent. When (Turkey) made it clear that it denied the permission to inspect the vessel, Operation Irini suspended the activities during which no evidence of illicit material was found," it said.

'Operation Irini's official website says the mission reserves the right to board ships without permission when conducting so-called "friendly approaches".


Turkey blasts 'unauthorised' German search on Libya-bound ship - France 24
 
^erm the Turks haven’t a leg to stand on. if it was Humanitarian they wouldn’t have have objected to the search, whilst the skipper went ya boo sucks. This is far more geared to Ankara Berlin relations
 
More on the German 'act of piracy'. I guess Ankara is not expecting to see DEU Patriot deployed back into Turkey any time soon. o_O

'Turkey and Germany traded barbs on Tuesday after German soldiers boarded a Turkish vessel on behalf of an EU military mission in the Mediterranean, with Berlin calling its NATO ally’s protests unjustified and Ankara saying the move was illegal.

'Turkey protested on Monday after German forces belonging to the European Union’s Irini mission, tasked with enforcing a U.N. arms embargo against Libya, boarded and searched a Turkish cargo ship the EU suspected of taking weapons to Libya illegally. Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said the boarding was an act of “piracy” and Ankara would “respond on the ground, as well as pursuing legal and political processes.”

'Ankara said the ship was carrying humanitarian aid and the German team violated international law by not waiting for Turkish permission to board the Rosaline-A. It later summoned the EU, German and Italian envoys to Ankara to protest.

'German Defence Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer said Turkey’s protests were unjustified. “The soldiers behaved correctly and acted absolutely in line with the mandate of the European mission Irini,” she said. “The accusations that are being raised against the soldiers are unjustified.”

'Turkish Defence Minister Hulusi Akar said the move was “completely against international law” and Ankara was working on measures to protect Turkish commercial vessels. Officials from Berlin and the Irini Operation have said they notified Turkey around four hours before boarding the ship and only went ahead after Ankara failed to respond to the notice. Turkey denied that it had not responded, saying Irini forces “ignored the written and oral messages sent by Turkish authorities” before the boarding. The foreign ministry said that when Turkey “protested this unlawful boarding and reserved its rights for compensation, Irini changed its position and realized that they could not board the ship without the flag-state consent”.

'The NATO allies have both said nothing suspicious was found on the 16,000-tonne container ship.'


Germany, Turkey trade accusations over interception of Turkish vessel
 
More on the German 'act of piracy'. I guess Ankara is not expecting to see DEU Patriot deployed back into Turkey any time soon. o_O

'Turkey and Germany traded barbs on Tuesday after German soldiers boarded a Turkish vessel on behalf of an EU military mission in the Mediterranean, with Berlin calling its NATO ally’s protests unjustified and Ankara saying the move was illegal.

'Turkey protested on Monday after German forces belonging to the European Union’s Irini mission, tasked with enforcing a U.N. arms embargo against Libya, boarded and searched a Turkish cargo ship the EU suspected of taking weapons to Libya illegally. Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said the boarding was an act of “piracy” and Ankara would “respond on the ground, as well as pursuing legal and political processes.”

'Ankara said the ship was carrying humanitarian aid and the German team violated international law by not waiting for Turkish permission to board the Rosaline-A. It later summoned the EU, German and Italian envoys to Ankara to protest.

'German Defence Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer said Turkey’s protests were unjustified. “The soldiers behaved correctly and acted absolutely in line with the mandate of the European mission Irini,” she said. “The accusations that are being raised against the soldiers are unjustified.”

'Turkish Defence Minister Hulusi Akar said the move was “completely against international law” and Ankara was working on measures to protect Turkish commercial vessels. Officials from Berlin and the Irini Operation have said they notified Turkey around four hours before boarding the ship and only went ahead after Ankara failed to respond to the notice. Turkey denied that it had not responded, saying Irini forces “ignored the written and oral messages sent by Turkish authorities” before the boarding. The foreign ministry said that when Turkey “protested this unlawful boarding and reserved its rights for compensation, Irini changed its position and realized that they could not board the ship without the flag-state consent”.

'The NATO allies have both said nothing suspicious was found on the 16,000-tonne container ship.'


Germany, Turkey trade accusations over interception of Turkish vessel
Lot's of bold rhetoric in there. How long until someone gets a bit itchy on the trigger finger? Undoubtedly from their end.
 
'Ankara said the ship was carrying humanitarian aid and the German team violated international law by not waiting for Turkish permission to board the Rosaline-A.
Not strictly true. The Boarding of ships in international waters by those tasked to enforce sanctions are not required to have national agreement or the Captains agreement. If required to heave to by a recognised authority in the execution of their duty all ships must comply. There are exceptions, such as Plague, extremely dangerous cargo. Otherwise how could such things such a fishery monitoring work? Specifically using Piracy as an excuse is a cop out. But then they know that.
 
Erdogan caught out again; how violent will his reaction be to this latest 'act of piracy'?

'Eastern-based Libyan forces have intercepted a Turkish ship under a Jamaican flag heading to the port of Misrata in western Libya, their spokesman said on Monday, a possible new flashpoint in the conflict after weeks of truce.

'Turkey is the main foreign backer of the internationally recognised Government of National Accord (GNA), in the west, which has for years been fighting the eastern-based Libyan National Army (LNA). LNA spokesman Ahmed al-Mismari added that the commercial cargo ship, Mabrouka, had 17 crew, including nine Turkish nationals, and containers that had not yet been inspected. LNA naval forces stopped it near the eastern port of Derna, he said.

'A spokesperson for Turkey’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs was not immediately available to comment.

'A panel of U.N. experts has cited the foreign supporters of both sides as breaching an arms embargo on Libya.'


UPDATE 2-Eastern Libyan force says it intercepted Turkish ship
 
Erdogan caught out again; how violent will his reaction be to this latest 'act of piracy'?

'Eastern-based Libyan forces have intercepted a Turkish ship under a Jamaican flag heading to the port of Misrata in western Libya, their spokesman said on Monday, a possible new flashpoint in the conflict after weeks of truce.

'Turkey is the main foreign backer of the internationally recognised Government of National Accord (GNA), in the west, which has for years been fighting the eastern-based Libyan National Army (LNA). LNA spokesman Ahmed al-Mismari added that the commercial cargo ship, Mabrouka, had 17 crew, including nine Turkish nationals, and containers that had not yet been inspected. LNA naval forces stopped it near the eastern port of Derna, he said.

'A spokesperson for Turkey’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs was not immediately available to comment.

'A panel of U.N. experts has cited the foreign supporters of both sides as breaching an arms embargo on Libya.'


UPDATE 2-Eastern Libyan force says it intercepted Turkish ship
Interesting point from Euronews last night Macron has met the Egyptian President and according to them barely skirted around Human rights issues. When asked about supplying arms to Egypt stated that categorically HR issues were not highest on the agenda. So much for UN end use certification. and of course direct competition with the UK in an area which has been traditionally Russian. So he want's a level Playing field does he? This was linked to Macron's so called war on Islamic terror, which apparently the Egyptians are trying to stamp out at home hence, the abuses. However that is a deliberate wedge between Turkey and Egypt and almost a role reversal of Ataturk in the 20's

Which rather begs a question. Are we now up against a French version of Italy's old Mare Nostrum concept trying to Edge the Brits out of the Med? Frances true light may be trying to shine under this bushel.
 

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