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Turkey - a real turkey?

Good start of the year in Iraq


We'll see how this goes then!

'The Turkish and French presidents have exchanged letters in which they have agreed to resume talks aimed at mending ties.

'Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdogan wrote a New Year message to his French counterpart Emmanuel Macron, expressing condolences for several attacks in France last year, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu was quoted as saying by local media on Friday.

'Macron sent back a “very positive” letter this week, starting with the greeting “Dear Tayyip” and saying he was open to a meeting, Cavusoglu said.

“President Macron expresses the importance of Turkey for Europe and his will to develop positive ties with Turkey as well as to meet our president in the coming period,” Cavusoglu said.

'Macron’s response proposed collaboration over “bilateral consultations, terrorism, regional issues such as Syria and Libya, and a partnership on education”, according to the Turkish official.

'The French presidency confirmed the exchange of letters without providing details.

“We now need tangible gestures” from Ankara, the French presidency said.'


‘Dear Tayyip’: Erdogan, Macron exchange letters
 

MissingOTC

War Hero
It's an interesting time in ME. With the US withdrawing/losing interest it really does appear like there are now 2 major blocks forming Iran/Turkey/Qatar/Pak on one hand and Saudia/UAE/Egypt on the other with China backing the many of the states in the former grouping and the US backing the latter. I think quite a few countries are veering towards trying to appease both but Saudi/UAE money talks. The UK seems to be firmly tired to the Saudis but keeps it's finger in a few Qatari/Pak pies. The French seem to have firmly gone in with the Saudis too, the Italians seem to be playing both sides pretty well.
 
We'll see how this plays out!

'President-elect Joe Biden’s choice for secretary of state on Tuesday referred to U.S. NATO ally Turkey as a so-called strategic partner and raised the possibility of imposing more sanctions on it for purchasing a Russian air defense system.

'The United States imposed sanctions on Turkey on Dec. 14 over Ankara’s acquisition of Russian S-400 air defense systems, further complicating already strained ties between the two.

“The idea that a strategic – so-called strategic partner of ours would actually be in line with one of our biggest strategic competitors in Russia is not acceptable,” Antony Blinken, Biden’s choice for chief U.S. diplomat, told lawmakers.

“I think we need to take a look to see the impact that the existing sanctions have had and then determine whether (there is) more that needs to be done,” Blinken said during his Senate Foreign Relations Committee confirmation hearing.

'Sanctions announced in December targeted Turkey’s top defense procurement and development body Presidency of Defence Industries (SSB), its chairman Ismail Demir and three other employees.

'The measures, which received bipartisan support from the U.S. Congress, were announced under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) - the first time the act has been used against a fellow member of the NATO alliance.'


U.S. secretary of state nominee calls NATO ally Turkey a 'so-called strategic partner'
 
Seems that Sultan Erdogan may have finally woken up and smelled the coffee that his fun times with TangoMan are over.

'Greece and Turkey will bow to EU and NATO pressure on Monday and hold the first direct talks over their explosive eastern Mediterranean standoff in four years.

'The Istanbul meeting is not expected to make major headway after the two NATO neighbours' gunboats collided in August as their dispute over energy and borders threatened to spiral out of control. But it adds to the positive tone Turkish President Recep Erdogan has been setting as he tries to repair damaged relations with Europe in the face of a potentially more hostile US administration under President Joe Biden.'

'Athens and Ankara held 60 rounds of talks between 2002 and 2016 that they broke off without making progress in a dispute that has lingered for much of the past century. Hostilities flared anew last year when Ankara sent a research ship accompanied by a navy flotilla into waters near the Turkish shore which Greece claims with EU support.

'Turkey is furious that Greece is using its vast web of islands to lay claim to huge swathes of the Aegean and Mediterranean Seas.''The two sides cite a range of decades-old treaties and international agreements to support their conflicting claims.

'NATO has set up a hotline to stave off a military conflict, while Germany has spearheaded efforts to solve the dispute through negotiations that do not further isolate the mercurial Erdogan.''These will not be easy as Athens and Ankara clashed over their agenda last week.''Greece wants to limit the discussions between the two countries' deputy foreign ministers to continental shelf borders and the size of exclusive economic zones.'But Ankara also accuses Athens of illegally stationing troops on some of its islands and wants to discuss aerial zones -- a separate dispute that saw a Greek pilot killed when his jet collided with a Turkish one in 2006.

'(Turkish FM) Cavusoglu was in Brussels for meetings with top EU officials last week and Ankara hopes for a return visit at the end of February or early March. But EU chief Ursula von der Leyen remarked in a pointed tweet after the meeting that while "dialogue is essential... we also expect credible gestures on the ground". France has led EU condemnation of Turkey's military interventions in Syria and Libya as well as Erdogan's support for Azerbaijan in the Nagorno-Karabakh war against Armenia last year. The EU ultimately decided to draw up an expanded list of Turkish targets for sanctions last month. But Cavusoglu denied the talks with Greece were linked to the risk of punitive measures from Brussels. "We're not a country that is scared of sanction threats," he said.'


Greece, Turkey face first crisis talk since 2016 - France 24
 
Turkey’s recent belligerence has produced results, these though perhaps not to their liking. Macron apparently did not appreciate being ‘warned’ by Erdogan and Greece and France are apparently working on an agreement for 18 Rafale fighter jets for Greece, 10 sold and 8 given as a gift. These will be fully armed versions ready for immediate deployment

The donation of eight Rafales from the French Air Force to the Greek Air Force are used ones from French Air Force inventory and possibly F3’s that attacked the Al Watiya air base in Libya a couple of months ago causing damage to Turkish air defence systems, the remaining ten will be new.

The Greek air force F-16's are to be updated to block V making them more lethal than Turkey’s F-16 E’s but the deal was only signed in 2019 with Lockheed Martin so not until 2022 when the first will be finished.


There is the possibility of the ten new ones being the F3R version which, armed with BVR Meteor’s would then outdistance the Amraam's used by the Turkish Air Force’s F-16s.

The Greek Air Force already operates the Mirage 2000, the Rafale’s predecessor which uses much of the same maintenance infrastructure and many of the same weapons, making integration of the Rafale relatively easy.

Greece has signed the contract for 18 Rafale for 2,5 billions €

The first Rafale will be delivered in 6 months.

In the package are Meteor, Mica IR and EM, AM 39 Exocet and Scalp EG missiles.

Greece becomes the 5th country to order Rafale. Like the other 4, it operated Mirage 2000 before. It does say quite a lot about the fidelity of Dassault customers

SLLSWMUOLLASWV2P2R4MXTQRAQ.jpg
 

MissingOTC

War Hero
Greece has signed the contract for 18 Rafale for 2,5 billions €

The first Rafale will be delivered in 6 months.

In the package are Meteor, Mica IR and EM, AM 39 Exocet and Scalp EG missiles.

Greece becomes the 5th country to order Rafale. Like the other 4, it operated Mirage 2000 before. It does say quite a lot about the fidelity of Dassault customers

View attachment 543514


True, also once you have the culture ingrained of operating French jets, and many of the support systems and weapons along with experianced manpower than it does become a logical move, despite the very high cost of French systems. On another note, if you are a NATO member you do not have much choice (either US or Euopean systems), Greek already signed on for F-16V and F-35, so not much else out there bar Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale.
 
The supposed high cost of French systems is more a myth than a reality. French system can cost more in unitary price but they are all meant to be easy to deploy and support and they come with no strings attached.

The TuAF future does not look bright...next stop, Moscow ?

 

MissingOTC

War Hero
The supposed high cost of French systems is more a myth than a reality. French system can cost more in unitary price but they are all meant to be easy to deploy and support and they come with no strings attached.

The TuAF future does not look bright...next stop, Moscow ?



I would be very much inclined to disagree

India - 36 Rafales = $9.2 Billion
Qatar - 36 Rafales = $8.2 Billion
Egypt - 24 Rafales = $5.9 Nillion

Now compare to the F-16V (Yes, you can argue the toss about which plane is better but the V can be considered a competitor in most areas with the Rafale including having an AESA)

Morroco - 25 F-16Vs = $3.8 Billion
Taiwain - 66 F-16Vs = $8 Billion

Now of course Taiwain and Morrcco already operate earlier versions of the F-16 and this should make the deal cheaper anyway, but India, Qatar and Egypt are also Mirage 2000 operators and the Rafale was designed to use much of the weaponry and logistics of the Mirage 2000.

You then have the Gripen E (again, very capable and with an AESA), Brazil nabbed 36 of these for $5.4 Billion


French planes are VERY expensive, but as you say, they come with no strings.
 
I would be very much inclined to disagree

India - 36 Rafales = $9.2 Billion
Qatar - 36 Rafales = $8.2 Billion
Egypt - 24 Rafales = $5.9 Nillion

Now compare to the F-16V (Yes, you can argue the toss about which plane is better but the V can be considered a competitor in most areas with the Rafale including having an AESA)

Morroco - 25 F-16Vs = $3.8 Billion
Taiwain - 66 F-16Vs = $8 Billion

Now of course Taiwain and Morrcco already operate earlier versions of the F-16 and this should make the deal cheaper anyway, but India, Qatar and Egypt are also Mirage 2000 operators and the Rafale was designed to use much of the weaponry and logistics of the Mirage 2000.

You then have the Gripen E (again, very capable and with an AESA), Brazil nabbed 36 of these for $5.4 Billion


French planes are VERY expensive, but as you say, they come with no strings.
Be careful with prices for American kit, as they way the announce prices has to do with American budget practices which often don't include major cost items. Typically what you actually get for what an American manufacturer gives out to the press as the cost is not a flyable plane.

We've covered this subject on other threads with regards to planes, ships, and other major platforms. It's nearly impossible to do international comparisons of costs of different major weapons systems because you don't know what is covered in that price. For example, comparing a plane that comes without engines or radar to a plane which comes in ready to fly condition, with 10 years of spare parts, tools and other maintenance kit, an initial stock of weapons, a training simulator, pilot and ground crew training, etc., etc., is going to make the first plane look quite cheap, but it's meaningless in practical terms.

I don't know the real cost of a fleet of F-16s as compared to a fleet of Rafales, but I can say that can't recall ever seeing a detailed cost analysis of the two where both were compared using identical accounting practices. The sort of detail which would allow that is generally considered to be sensitive both commercially and militarily.
 
Could get ugly for the new, swashbuckling, 'global' Britain.

'Any possible implications of the U.S. sanctions against Turkey over its procurement of the Russian-made S-400 air defense systems on the bilateral cooperation of British and Turkish defense industries will be clear after the new U.S. administration takes its position over implementing the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA, the British ambassador to Ankara said on Jan. 28.)

'The diplomat expressed his government’s expectation that in the future Turkey will meet its defense industry demands from NATO allies instead of Russia. “Our position is quite clear that we very much hope that Turkey will in the future look to its NATO allies, as the British ambassador looks to the U.K., for international defense industry collaborations, not to Russia,” Sir Dominick Chilcott, British Ambassador to Turkey, told members of Diplomatic Correspondent’s Association.

'Recalling that Turkey and the U.K. are both NATO members, the ambassador said defense cooperation and defense industry cooperation are important components of the bilateral relationship. “In the defense industry sector, there is no doubt that the collaboration on the TF-X fighter project is an extremely important project. The U.K. is very committed to work with Turkey in the defense sector and pursue our defense industry sectors,” he stated.

'But the envoy also cited the doctrine of NATO for not buying defense equipment from Russia. “NATO has a doctrine on the issue of buying equipment from Russia. Basically, NATO allies agreed they should not do it. This is the position of our government. We stand by the NATO position that the allies should not buy equipment or use equipment sources from Russia. There are some exceptions to this for those countries that have legacy equipment from the days of Cold War from Russia,” Chilcott said.

'Elaborating on the TF-X jet engines that the Turkish Aerospace Industries in Turkey (TAI) is planning to replace with F-16 fighter jets, the ambassador said, “The British government hopes Rolls-Royce will be the company working with Turkish partners to design and manufacture engines on this project.”

'The ambassador said they still wait to see how the CAATSA sanctions will operate in the new U.S. administration. “It is very hard to say specifics of the CAATSA sanctions might have on British-Turkish collaboration on defense.” He recalled that some British companies have partnerships with the American firms based in the U.S. and Rolls-Royce’s Honeywell venture is one of them.'


We hope Turkey will cooperate with NATO allies in future, not Russia: British ambassador - Turkey News
 
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Greece has signed the contract for 18 Rafale for 2,5 billions €

The first Rafale will be delivered in 6 months.

In the package are Meteor, Mica IR and EM, AM 39 Exocet and Scalp EG missiles.

Greece becomes the 5th country to order Rafale. Like the other 4, it operated Mirage 2000 before. It does say quite a lot about the fidelity of Dassault customers

View attachment 543514

French MoD has announced this morning the order of 12 new Rafale for the French Air Force to replace the 12 sold to Greece. They will be delivered in 2025.
 

JCC

War Hero
Just watched a fasinating little piece on YouTube. The Treaty of Lausanne was signed between the Allies and the Turks in 1923 however the Turks now claim that conditions on the ground have changed to such a degree that it should be re-negotiated.

Potentially they would seek to have rights over countries and territories that formerly were part of the Ottoman Empire, extend drilling rights, and allow Turkey to levy a tax on all traffic through the Bosphorus straits.
 
Just watched a fasinating little piece on YouTube. The Treaty of Lausanne was signed between the Allies and the Turks in 1923 however the Turks now claim that conditions on the ground have changed to such a degree that it should be re-negotiated.

Potentially they would seek to have rights over countries and territories that formerly were part of the Ottoman Empire, extend drilling rights, and allow Turkey to levy a tax on all traffic through the Bosphorus straits.
Can you provide a link, please ?!
 
Just watched a fasinating little piece on YouTube. The Treaty of Lausanne was signed between the Allies and the Turks in 1923 however the Turks now claim that conditions on the ground have changed to such a degree that it should be re-negotiated.

Potentially they would seek to have rights over countries and territories that formerly were part of the Ottoman Empire, extend drilling rights, and allow Turkey to levy a tax on all traffic through the Bosphorus straits.

In typical Turkish diplomatic manoeuvring, they will always try to play both sides of the street to their own advantage.

'Greece’s arming 16 islands out of 23 and pledging a military status to these islands in violation of international laws is unacceptable. It’s an overt breach of the Lausanne Treaty,” Akar said.'

 

MissingOTC

War Hero
Be careful with prices for American kit, as they way the announce prices has to do with American budget practices which often don't include major cost items. Typically what you actually get for what an American manufacturer gives out to the press as the cost is not a flyable plane.

We've covered this subject on other threads with regards to planes, ships, and other major platforms. It's nearly impossible to do international comparisons of costs of different major weapons systems because you don't know what is covered in that price. For example, comparing a plane that comes without engines or radar to a plane which comes in ready to fly condition, with 10 years of spare parts, tools and other maintenance kit, an initial stock of weapons, a training simulator, pilot and ground crew training, etc., etc., is going to make the first plane look quite cheap, but it's meaningless in practical terms.

I don't know the real cost of a fleet of F-16s as compared to a fleet of Rafales, but I can say that can't recall ever seeing a detailed cost analysis of the two where both were compared using identical accounting practices. The sort of detail which would allow that is generally considered to be sensitive both commercially and militarily.


You are right, these comparisons will never be 100% accurate and the true cost will probably never be made public, we can only go by what it publicly available, and that information shows French kit is almost always more expensive.
 

MissingOTC

War Hero
In typical Turkish diplomatic manoeuvring, they will always try to play both sides of the street to their own advantage.

'Greece’s arming 16 islands out of 23 and pledging a military status to these islands in violation of international laws is unacceptable. It’s an overt breach of the Lausanne Treaty,” Akar said.'


That is literally the policy of every major power that finds itself in a similar situation.
 
A report claiming that the UK has offered to sell Turkey aircraft carrier design

“They have offered to sell the design of an aircraft carrier and provide technical support during the construction in Turkey,” one of the sources said.


 
A well thought-through diplomatic means to re-establish a troubled relationship. o_O

'Turkey’s interior minister accused the United States on Thursday of being behind a 2016 failed coup that Ankara has blamed on a U.S.-based Muslim preacher, the Hurriyet daily reported, at a time when Turkey is seeking improved ties with its NATO ally.

'The U.S. State Department said the accusation was “wholly false.”

'More than 250 people were killed in the attempt to overthrow President Tayyip Erdogan and his government on July 15, 2016, when rogue soldiers commandeered warplanes, helicopters and tanks to seize state institutions. Ankara has long blamed preacher Fethullah Gulen, a former ally of Erdogan who lives in Pennsylvania, and launched a widespread crackdown on his network, which Ankara refers to by the acronym ‘FETO’. Gulen denies any involvement.

'Interior Minister Suleyman Soylu told Hurriyet the United States had managed the coup attempt while Gulen’s network carried it out, adding “Europe was enthusiastic about it,” reaffirming a view he said he had been expressing since the putsch. “It is blatantly clear the United States is behind July 15. It was FETO who carried it out upon their orders,” he said.

'Since the failed coup, Turkey has detained some 292,000 people over suspected links to Gulen and has suspended or sacked more than 150,000 civil servants. Hundreds of media outlets have been shut and dozens of opposition lawmakers have been jailed.'


Turkish minister says U.S. behind 2016 failed coup - Hurriyet
 
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