Turkey - a real turkey?

I think the Malay version of Islam was always quite moderate, but there have been complaints in Malaysia (By the Sultan of Johore for one) that it is being increasingly influenced by the harder line Arab version of Islam.
There have been extremists in the past. There was an Islamic/Messianic chap in Malaya during the Great War who started to have a murderous go the British became of their war against the Caliphate (Ottoman Empire). He was caught and crucified...
 
Last edited:
There have been extremists in the past. There was an Islamic/Messianic chap in Malaya during the Great War who started to have a murderous go the British became of their war against the Caliphate (Ottoman Empire). He was caught and crucified...
Who by the British? I haven't heard that one before. The only major incident that I am aware of was the 1915 mutiny by Muslim Sepoy soldiers of the Indian army stationed in Singapore. Ironically Japanese sailors from a Naval ship in the harbour helped to supress it.

1915 Singapore Mutiny.
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Seems it is a bit tense in the Med...

Turks sending the Oruc Reis survey ship along with 5 escorts to Greece's EEZ. Greece tells em to bugger off by 9pm else...

Seems they're now playing a sort of EEZ chicken...
 
Seems it is a bit tense in the Med...

Turks sending the Oruc Reis survey ship along with 5 escorts to Greece's EEZ. Greece tells em to bugger off by 9pm else...

Seems they're now playing a sort of EEZ chicken...
It's been getting more argy-bargy since May 2019 when the Turks started sending exploratory missions into the E Med.


'Greece has called a military meeting after Turkey resumed a mission looking for gas reserves near a Greek island. Erdogan has meanwhile called for dialogue to resolve ongoing issues between the two NATO members.

'Greece on Monday accused NATO ally Turkey of "threatening peace" in the eastern Mediterranean after Ankara resumed searching for oil and gas near the remote Greek island of Kastellorizo. The Greek foreign ministry said that Turkey's decision to deploy a seismic research ship constituted a "new serious escalation" and "exposed" Turkey's "destabilising role." The Greek ministry said the country "will defend its sovereignty and its sovereign rights." The office of Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said he had spoken to EU Council President Charles Michel and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg.

'Stoltenberg urged respect for international law during his conversation with Mitsotakis. "The situation must be resolved in a spirit of Allied solidarity and in accordance with international law," Stoltenberg tweeted. "Further seismic exploration at this point is certainly the wrong signal," a German foreign ministry spokesman said, adding that Athens and Ankara should engage in dialogue. "Let us all come together as Mediterranean countries and find a formula that protects all of our rights," Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Monday in a national address after a meeting with his own ministers, striking a comparatively conciliatory tone.

"We cannot allow [nations] to ignore a big country like Turkey and try to imprison us to our shores."
Turkey dispatched the research ship Oruc Reis to the region on Monday — just three days after Erdogan said he was tired of waiting for the outcome of sporadic talks held in the past month with Greece and the EU's current presidency holder, Germany. Erdogan last month said he was "suspending" gas exploration to give time for talks with Greece and Germany after a request from German Chancellor Angela Merkel.
The mood changed, however when Greece and Egypt — a rival to Turkey in Libya — last week signed a deal for an exclusive economic deal in the region. Turkey's foreign ministry had said the "so-called maritime deal" was "null and void."

'A spokesman for Turkey's Foreign Ministry, Hami Aksoy, defended the Oruc Reis's research on Monday and accused Greece of being responsible for the current tensions, pointing to the "pirates' agreement" Athens signed with Cairo as a sign that it wasn't sincere about dialogue. French President Emmanuel Macron last month called for sanctions against Turkey, saying it was "not acceptable for the maritime space of a European Union member state to be violated or threatened." Turkey has rejected the criticism and claimed that it is well within its rights — or those of Turkish Cypriots — to explore areas claimed by Cyprus and Greece. Turkey's energy minister, Fatih Donmez, referring to Turkey's population, tweeted that "83 million back the Oruc Reis'' after the vessel arrived in its area of operation Monday morning.'


 
Last edited:
Who by the British? I haven't heard that one before. The only major incident that I am aware of was the 1915 mutiny by Muslim Sepoy soldiers of the Indian army stationed in Singapore. Ironically Japanese sailors from a Naval ship in the harbour helped to supress it.

1915 Singapore Mutiny.
@par avion Two things happened on the Malay peninsula in 1915.

The Malay States' Guides, a mounted armed constabularly, had refused to embark for overseas service (thinking they were going to Egypt, Palestine or Mesopotamia and operating against other Muslims).

A Messianic character, To' Janggutt, led a Malay peasants' revolt in the Pasir Puteh district in the north-eastern state of Kelantan. He was killed on 23 May 1915 and according to police reports 'his eviscerated body was crucified, upside down, and left on display to dispel to the locals of his self-belief of invincibility and immortality.' Ban Kah Moon (2000) Absent History: The untold story of Special Branch Operations in Singapore 1915-1942 pp 6-17.
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Worth pointing out that Turkey has never signed up to UNCLOS.

With lots of people wibbling abut international law it'll be interesting to see whether they seek to uphold UNCLOS, as this has some ramifications for the SCS.

Under UNCLOS and bilateral agreements between this is what Greece's EEZ looks like...

greekeez.jpeg




Whereas the Erdowanker has made a campaign of a 'Blue Homeland' or mavi vatan

which..... shall we say is a bit different...


BlueHomeland.jpeg



All of Greece's little islands give it the greater legitimacy.

Course it is all about oil and gas as large fields have been discovered in the Eastern Med.

Nato will be studiously ignoring this and hoping it doesn't go kinetic, though France does seem to be siding with Greece. Both are tooled up navally with somewhat similar fleets.
 
Nato will be studiously ignoring this and hoping it doesn't go kinetic, though France does seem to be siding with Greece. Both are tooled up navally with somewhat similar fleets.
What a pity that in the rush to shore up the eastern flank of NATO by admitting both Greece and Turkey, the powers that be chose to ignore parts of the founding document of the Alliance.

Article 8

Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.


 
Turkey has not signed and will not ratify UNCLOS III as this would then be formal acceptance of Greek claims for TTW - which means that Turkish vessels could only transit to major Turkish ports through Greek waters. However, both MFA and Turkish Navy claim that Turkey will abide by the spirit of teh Treaty, insofar that it doesn't impinge on Turkish sovereignty.

Unfortunately the current set up has British perfidy all over it. Under British influence, the Dodecanese islands were handed over to Italy after the Great War and then to Greece after WWII (after a brief German and then British occupation) as a result of the Treaty of Paris. Turkey, having remained neutral for much of the war and agreeing to sell all cobalt production to Britain, thought it would reclaim some of the islands lost in the Aegean.

I've attached a rather long paper written by a former colleague about modern Turkey, and the tortuous last 100 or so years.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
I wasn't aware that Turkey had signed UNCLOS whatsoever... Do you have a source?
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
UNTC"

On 21 December 1995, the Secretary-General received from the Government of Turkey the following communication:

"1. The signature and ratification of the Convention by Greece and the subsequent declaration in this regard shall neither prejudice nor affect the existing rights and legitimate interests of Turkey with respect to maritime jurisdiction areas in the Aegean. Turkey fully reserves her rights under international law.

Turkey wishes to state that she will not acquiesce in any claim or attempt designed to upset the long-standing status quo in this respect, that would deprive Turkey of her existing rights and interests. Any unilateral act in this respect that would constitute an abuse of the provisions of the Convention would entail totally unacceptable consequences. Turkey has registered her opposition in this regard actively and persistently from the very outset.
 
I wasn't aware that Turkey had signed UNCLOS whatsoever... Do you have a source?
They haven't; perhaps I should have clarified that they have neither signed it nor ratified it - and never will.

Acceptance of any Treaty is a two-part process. There's the formal signing (by a Minister Plenipotentiary acting de jure for the Head of State) and then the Treaty must be ratified by Parliament. This is why you get the situation in the US, for example, where a Democrat President can sign a Treaty, yet it will not be ratified by a Republican-dominated Congress, and therefore not pass into law.

As I pointed out on other threads, once a Treaty is ratified in Parliament, it is incorporated into municipal (ie domestic) law.
 
Last edited:
They haven'; perhaps I should have clarified that they have neither signed it nor ratified it - and never will.

Acceptance of any Treaty is a two-part process. There's the formal signing (by a Minister Plenipotentiary acting de jure for the Head of State) and then the Treaty must be ratified by Parliament. This is why you get the situation in the US, for example, where a Democrat President can sign a Treaty, yet it will not be ratified by a Republican-dominated Congress, and therefore not pass into law.

As I pointed out on other threads, once a Treay is ratified in Parliament, it is incorporated into municipal (ie domestic) law.
The US haven't ratified UNCLOS either, as they want to pick and choose what bits of it they want to recognise and what bits they want to ignore.
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
The US haven't ratified UNCLOS either, as they want to pick and choose what bits of it they want to recognise and what bits they want to ignore.
US law allows them to annex any islands full of bird crap... Which isn't exactly in the spirit of UNCLOS. :)
 
Worth pointing out that Turkey has never signed up to UNCLOS.

With lots of people wibbling abut international law it'll be interesting to see whether they seek to uphold UNCLOS, as this has some ramifications for the SCS.

Under UNCLOS and bilateral agreements between this is what Greece's EEZ looks like...

View attachment 496172



Whereas the Erdowanker has made a campaign of a 'Blue Homeland' or mavi vatan

which..... shall we say is a bit different...


View attachment 496174


All of Greece's little islands give it the greater legitimacy.

Course it is all about oil and gas as large fields have been discovered in the Eastern Med.

Nato will be studiously ignoring this and hoping it doesn't go kinetic, though France does seem to be siding with Greece. Both are tooled up navally with somewhat similar fleets.
If you took at the top map, you can see the difficulty that Turkey has in maintaining terrirtorial integrity of its coastal water - and controlling irregular migration (when they want to). In some parts, territorial waters are only 500 m wide before entering Greek (= EU) waters, making it extremely difficult for the TCG to intercept them.
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Greece standing up for itself if this local comic is to be believed...


"A message to Ankara that "Oruch Reyes cables should not touch the Greek continental shelf" is sent by competent military sources, stressing that if this happens, Turkey will be "fully and exclusively" responsible for what follows. ."

The frogs asking for sanctions and the gumps seem to have woken up too.

Course Total has quite a few interests in the Eastern Med.
 
Nato will be studiously ignoring this and hoping it doesn't go kinetic, though France does seem to be siding with Greece. Both are tooled up navally with somewhat similar fleets.
There will be considerable behind the scenes disucssions at NAC, MC and SNR in NATO HQs & SHAPE, and at MARCOM, Northwood, amongst other places. It was joked that HQ AIRSOUTH - when in Naples - was set up with the sole mission of stopping these countries having a go at each other (and, in that respect, it was successful)
 
Greece standing up for itself if this local comic is to be believed...


"A message to Ankara that "Oruch Reyes cables should not touch the Greek continental shelf" is sent by competent military sources, stressing that if this happens, Turkey will be "fully and exclusively" responsible for what follows. ."

The frogs asking for sanctions and the gumps seem to have woken up too.

Course Total has quite a few interests in the Eastern Med.
It's not as if much has happened in 2020...and we are only just over halfway through.
 
There will be considerable behind the scenes disucssions at NAC, MC and SNR MilRep in NATO HQs & (less likely) NMR in SHAPE, and at MARCOM, Northwood, amongst other places. It was joked that HQ AIRSOUTH - when in Naples - was set up with the sole mission of stopping these countries having a go at each other (and, in that respect, it was successful)
And CAOC Torrejon fulfills that latter role today.
 

Latest Threads

Top