Trying to ID a Unit from a group photograph.

#1
While digging through family history I was surprised to find a photograph of an Army unit with my Grandfather in it, (5th row, 3rd From left). What's bothersome is that there are no records of any military service for him, (both he and my Grandmother died in 1945 leaving my father and Uncle orphaned as young teens).

Factors I have considered are:-

1. That my Great Grandfather had been a Sergeant in the Lancashire Fusiliers

2. My Grandfather lived his entire life in Lancashire, (Chadderton/Middleton).

3. Grandfather was born in January 1900 so it is quite possible that he was called up in 1918.

4. The cap badge does not look like the Lancashire Fusiliers.

5. Many of the men are wearing medal ribbonsand are clearly adults thus ruling out this being some sort of cadet unit.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

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#2
This looks like a mounted sub unit. The man sitting at the front is holding what looks to be a trumpet rather han a bugle and the sergeant sitting at the end of the second row is clearly wearing riding breeches. I would also think it is a TA unit between the wars rather than a regular unit. The background looks more like a drill hall than a barracks and they have managed to muster only 57 all ranks for the sub unit photograph. So possible candidates are a squadron of DLOY or a battery of the Lancashire Hussars who were then serving in an arty role. There might be others, it would be worth researching locally what monted TA units had drill halls in Chadderton/Middleton. I think the DLOY had at least one squadron in Manchester.
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
#3
I can't help much, but would say the two senior chaps at the front with the interesting trousers are visiting chaps and the one to their left in the picture is a MA or Bde Maj type (different badges). The one with the cane is the commander.

Having just watched the Ian Hislop jobbie on BBC, I'm rather touched by the hands on shoulders in the rear ranks.

The other bloke with a cane on the left and a Sam Browne is probably the 2IC. I see 4 sergeants in the first seated row and one other person, rank unknown, towards the left. So, yes, a squadron.

If I were a betting man, I'd say this may be after the end of the war.

The lanyard could be artillery.
 

LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
#4
This looks like a mounted sub unit. The man sitting at the front is holding what looks to be a trumpet rather han a bugle and the sergeant sitting at the end of the second row is clearly wearing riding breeches. I would also think it is a TA unit between the wars rather than a regular unit. The background looks more like a drill hall than a barracks and they have managed to muster only 57 all ranks for the sub unit photograph. So possible candidates are a squadron of DLOY or a battery of the Lancashire Hussars who were then serving in an arty role. There might be others, it would be worth researching locally what monted TA units had drill halls in Chadderton/Middleton. I think the DLOY had at least one squadron in Manchester.
You are right about the instrument, it is a cavalry trumpet.

The 2 sergeants on either end of row 2 seem to have farrier badges above their tapes.
 
#5
It looks to me that the tom front rank 3rd from (our) right is wearing jodphurs as well - some kind of reinforcement on the inside of his knees
 

LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
#6
The bloke with the cane 4th from our right 2nd row appears to have some type of Warrant Officers insignia at the bottom of his sleeves, IIRC WW1 (and after) WO1s wore a small brass royal coat of arms rather than the larger cloth badge that we are now familiar with.

The chap 4th from our left 2nd row also seems to have some type of badge at the bottom of his left sleeve as well but it does look like a cloth one.
 
#7
They're both WO1s - hence the SD with Sam Brownes.
 

LancePrivateJones

MIA
Book Reviewer
#8
From memory.....

The old TAC in Rifle Street Oldham was the home to one of the companies of 4 Para.

Prior to this the Oldham TAC was home to a TA RTR Sqn, could this RTR Sqn be descended from a local TA Cav Sqn?
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
#9
From memory.....

The old TAC in Rifle Street Oldham was the home to one of the companies of 4 Para.

Prior to this the Oldham TAC was home to a TA RTR Sqn, could this RTR Sqn be descended from a local TA Cav Sqn?
Blimey, visited there in '91 with the man Leask. Doesn't look familiar.

I'd go architecturally for a late 19th century depot.
 
#10
Blimey, visited there in '91 with the man Leask. Doesn't look familiar.

I'd go architecturally for a late 19th century depot.
I know what you mean but I wouldn't rule Oldham TAC out especially as it is very close to Chadderton and Middleton.

That said, there were TACs all over the place in those days even up in the villages of Saddleworth.
 
#11
From memory.....

The old TAC in Rifle Street Oldham was the home to one of the companies of 4 Para.

Prior to this the Oldham TAC was home to a TA RTR Sqn, could this RTR Sqn be descended from a local TA Cav Sqn?
To answer my own question, no.

The 41st and 47th (Oldham) RTR was a conversion from the Manchester Regiment.
 
#12
Would the photo be of 2 units as some have lanyards and some don't?
 
#13
Which would explain the two WO1s and differing cap badges, some of which look like RE to my tired eyes.
 
#14
Could it be a photo of a Regt HQ? Just trying to make sense of the mix of badges and the relative age of the blokes.
 
#15
In 1910 Northern Cavalry Brigade HQ was established at Burniston Barracks, Scalby Mills, Scarborough, and was therefore the 18 Hussars Headquarters.

Might be 18th Hussars?

 
#17
The Lancashire Hussars HQ was originally at Prince Alfred Road, Liverpool, they converted to artillery in 1920 with only two batteries and by 1921 HQ was in Manchester. The Duke of lancaster's Own Yeomanry HQ was originally at Whalley Road, Manchester , they remained mounted until WW2.

There are two field officers in the photo, three WO1s (Sam Browns and stand-up collars) and five staff sergeants, plus the lone trumpeter. The other ranks are wearing their puttees would down the leg and have spur guards at the front of their boots so it's certainly a horsed unit. Some of the other ranks at the front of the group are wearing WW1 overseas service stripes on their right cuffs, one of which looks like he went abroad in 1915.
 
#19
Damn, you chaps are good...

So far it seems that the consensus is that this is a mounted unit, (possibly Lancashire Hussars, Duke of Lancaster's own Yeomanry or 18th Hussars). The photograph is probably post WWI but it must be pretty close to the end of the war because my grandfather looks very young.

For my own research from your suggestions the cap badge of the Lancashire Hussars appears wider than it is tall while the cap badges in the photograph seem taller than wide, (picture 1).

Also, according to Wikipedia, (I know...), the Lancashire Hussars came in three flavours:-

1. 1/1st Lancashire Hussars - The unit was dismounted in 1917 and trained as Infantry. Would the unit have maintained the cavalry accoutrements?

2. 2/1st Lancashire Hussars - This unit was moved to Ireland in May 1918 but had been made a bicyclist unit in 1916. Same question as for the 1/1st but for a Bicycle unit.

3. 3/1st Lancashire Hussars - Formed in 1915 it was already in Ireland in 1917.

So, unless they kept cavalry accoutrements when the role changed I think the Lancashire Hussars is ruled out.

The cap badge of the DLOY seems a better fit to what we are looking at, (picture 2).

Wikipedia indicates a similar set of flavours and outcomes to the Lancashire Hussars. The were a 1/1st, 2/1st and 3/1st units. 1/1st seemingly were all dismounted by 1917. 2/1st were on bicycles by 1917 and moved to Ireland in May 1918. However, the 3/1st remained mounted and were absorbed into the 6th Cavalry Reserve Regiment but they were moved down to Tidworth in 1917 - Grandfather would have been almost 18 on Dec. 31st 1917 so I doubt he would have got into a unit based in Tidworth, (though it isn't impossible I suppose - or is it?).

The 18th Hussars are a bit difficult to pin down as to where they were at the end of WWI... :scratch:

I really thank you chaps for helping with this. It would be great to be able to tell my dad what unit his dad served with.
 

Attachments

#20
Lancashire Hussars
1/1st - divisional then corps cavalry in France from the beginning of 1916 (one sqdn diverted to Egypt for a few months), converted to infantry and absorbed by 18/Kings July 1917. They would have dressed as infantry (puttees wound up the leg).
2/1st - cyclists from July 1916 (dressed as infantry). To Ireland May 1918.
3/1st - formed 1915 and to Ireland . Absorbed into 2nd Reserve Cavalry regiment until 1/1st became infantry then to 5(Reserve)/Kings.

DOLOY
1/1st - divisional and corps cavalry in Egypt (one squadron) and France (two) then corps cavalry. The French sqdns were converted to infantry and absorbed by 12/Manchesters on 24.9.17.
2/1st - as 2/1st Lancs Hussars.
3/1st - formed 1915 and to Ireland. Returned and absorbed by 6th Reserve Cavalry Regiment early 1917.

There are at least three cap badges in the photo but I can't make them out.
 

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