Troops execute Unarmed Iraqi?

#2
found large numbers of spent British cartridge cases
a soldier on one of the tanks opened fire on Zaher with its 7.62 coaxial machinegun, inadvertently shooting Roberts as well.
Question #1: Don't Coax cases get ejected inside the tank?
Question #2: How in gods name did Roberts get hit? Didn't he notice the 120mm Gun pointing at him?
 
#3
I don't understand what this article about. We saw (on TV) an American soldier who killed unarmed Iraqi and there was no any reaction. Israel army ('the most human army' in the World btw) kills unarmed civilians (including children) on daily or weekly basis.

I think that the Iraqi was killed to stop his sufferengs. So if any logical verdict would be 'not guilty' then why spend time resorces to investigate so clear case. If the Iraqi was detained and killed by pistol shots in British custody then maybe it would be a reason to investigate the case.
 
#4
[/quote]
Question #1: Don't Coax cases get ejected inside the tank?
[/quote]

No
 
#5
I swear someone in the Murdoch press has got it in for the Army. The deaths were in March 03, the advisory allegedly told Wall to stop blocking the investigation in September 03 and the bustup between Goldsmith and TCH apparently happened in November 2004 - so why the hell has this made it into print in February 2006? Who can possibly gain from this?

Unless...tinfoil hat time here...the Armed Forces Bill is going through Parliament (or is just about to), isn't it? Could it be that someone is trying to smear the current system in an effort to get the forces brought under civilian jurisdiction?
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#6
I think the aim is to highlight the lack of independant investigations in the Army. No man is above the law, not even a General. If the allegation against Wall is proven he should be tried for perverting the course of justice.

I agree that most papers are milking these stories for every cent they can, but this one is different mate. If proven that senior Army Officers took it upon themselves to say what could and couldn't be investigated then this will throw suspicion upon other cases.

I hope it goes ahead, I really do. It's not bad for morale, it's good for morale. It shows that no one has the right to cover up and there's been quite a few cover ups of recent.

If we were more transparant, we wouldn't attract the attention of the press. A full and open investigation at the time may have dented the confidence of some, but right thinking soldiers would have nothing to worry about and in the end, it wouldn't have had any affect upon how they did their jobs. Most soldiers are too professional for that, despite the rants of some. To say otherwise is nothing but an insult to the professional soldier.

If you want to talk about a soldiers morale, then I can assure you that the morale of the WO investigating that case was badly affected. His career stood still. His weak management (less Lt Col Taylor who is now a civvy) nigh on disowned him and some within his unit attempted to tarnish his professional reputation. All he was doing was his job. If it were one of your family or freinds who died in those or any other circumstances and the Policeman tasked to investigate wasn't allowed to do so on the word of senior personnel, how would you feel. Would you want the press to continue? How would you feel if you were the Policeman and your career and professional reputation were affected because you were determined to uncover the truth, the very job you were paid to do.

This matter should not be dropped.
 
#7
KGB_resident said:
I don't understand what this article about. We saw (on TV) an American soldier who killed unarmed Iraqi and there was no any reaction. Israel army ('the most human army' in the World btw) kills unarmed civilians (including children) on daily or weekly basis.
Yes, but we live in a hand-wringing, PC, tree-hugging country, run by ex-CND and pro-IRA slimy, spineless politicians who despise the military but, typical of love-hate relationships, desperately need it.

Juvenal said:
Unless...tinfoil hat time here...the Armed Forces Bill is going through Parliament (or is just about to), isn't it? Could it be that someone is trying to smear the current system in an effort to get the forces brought under civilian jurisdiction?
You nasty, cynical person, you! Couldn't agree more. There seems to be a definite drive by certain parts of the press (Murdoch) to 'prove' that the CoC isn't robust enough to control the behaviour of the troops or to impartially investigate and punish those accused of breaches of discipline. I'm not sure about a political officer, but I'd not be surprised if some elements of our esteemed leadership were in favour of human-rights lawyers being attached to each sqn / coy / bty so that they can dictate when and in which way the troops can engage the enemy - all done via multi-media link-ups, of course, with the lawyers safely tucked up somewhere away from the nasty violence and the brutish soldiers...
 
#8
Biscuits_AB said:
I think the aim is to highlight the lack of independant investigations in the Army. No man is above the law, not even a General. If the allegation against Wall is proven he should be tried for perverting the course of justice.

I agree that most papers are milking these stories for every cent they can, but this one is different mate. If proven that senior Army Officers took it upon themselves to say what could and couldn't be investigated then this will throw suspicion upon other cases.

I hope it goes ahead, I really do. It's not bad for morale, it's good for morale. It shows that no one has the right to cover up and there's been quite a few cover ups of recent.

If we were more transparant, we wouldn't attract the attention of the press. A full and open investigation at the time may have dented the confidence of some, but right thinking soldiers would have nothing to worry about and in the end, it wouldn't have had any affect upon how they did their jobs. Most soldiers are too professional for that, despite the rants of some. To say otherwise is nothing but an insult to the professional soldier.

If you want to talk about a soldiers morale, then I can assure you that the morale of the WO investigating that case was badly affected. His career stood still. His weak management (less Lt Col Taylor who is now a civvy) nigh on disowned him and some within his unit attempted to tarnish his professional reputation. All he was doing was his job. If it were one of your family or freinds who died in those or any other circumstances and the Policeman tasked to investigate wasn't allowed to do so on the word of senior personnel, how would you feel. Would you want the press to continue? How would you feel if you were the Policeman and your career and professional reputation were affected because you were determined to uncover the truth, the very job you were paid to do.

This matter should not be dropped.
Biscuits your post is one the bravest and most honest I've ever seen on ARRSE. The circumstances surrounding the death of Sgt Roberts and the Iraqi civillian should be known, it is in everyone's interests including the Army's and the families of both deceased. Also what is at stake here is a very important principle which is that both the police and the judiciary are free from interference from the executive (Govt or senior army officers). Whilst to some extent it sticks in my throat to stick up for journalists (Rebeka Wade et al) they have an important job to do. I seem to remember another incident from Telic 1 where death of a marine on board a boat was put down to enemy action by the investigating RMP but an investigation by the BBC (I think) showed it was a blue on blue.
 
#10
micksmith said:
Interesting comments on this thread, particularly given the widespread anger over media coverage of the video. Anyone who wants to see the text of the letter from the Attorney-General to Hoon can read it on my TimesOnline blog which refers to ARRSE.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/
Blimey, a journo admitting he's a journo....well, "Mick", have you Murdoch whoresmiths got it in for us? Where we are sitting it would seem so. Check out other threads here to see what ARRSers would like to do with you all.

BTW, is this chap Lord Goldsmith the same AG who advised Bliar that the Iraq "visit" was legal?
 
#11
DozyBint said:
KGB_resident said:
I don't understand what this article about. We saw (on TV) an American soldier who killed unarmed Iraqi and there was no any reaction. Israel army ('the most human army' in the World btw) kills unarmed civilians (including children) on daily or weekly basis.
Yes, but we live in a hand-wringing, PC, tree-hugging country, run by ex-CND and pro-IRA slimy, spineless politicians who despise the military but, typical of love-hate relationships, desperately need it.
I don't think that it is that simple. There are many other 'forgotten' investigations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3825439.stm

An inquiry is being launched into claims that British troops mutilated the bodies of Iraqi soldiers.

Ali al Jemindari, 37, was described as having had his right arm severed at the shoulder and right eye gouged out.

The face of another Iraqi soldier was said to have been distorted.
...
"signs of beating and torturing all over the body" in one case and "mutilation of the genitalia" in another.
It happend in Amara June 2004. Btw, mutilated corps were filmed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1243712,00.html

Since then, a CD carrying footage shot by a relative of the scenes from that afternoon's events has been circulating in Amara and Majar al Kabir. As the bodies are unzipped from the bags at Amara hospital angry relatives shout at the camera, saying that the dead were alive when they went into the British base.

The camera then pans in on the blood-soaked corpses as they emerge from the bags, and fingers can be seen point ing at what they evidently believe to be signs of mutilation or torture.
Now imagine that NotW would publish this video.
 
#12
micksmith said:
Interesting comments on this thread, particularly given the widespread anger over media coverage of the video. Anyone who wants to see the text of the letter from the Attorney-General to Hoon can read it on my TimesOnline blog which refers to ARRSE.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/
The article's headline said:
Where Were the Officers?
How do you know the posters aren't Officers? How do we know the posters aren't you with a different sign-in name?

Call yourself an investigative journalist? Pontificating about what serving soldiers think based on something you culled from an anonymous, public web-site? Thanks for including the link to this thread. I hope everyone who follows it gets to see what arrsers really think of journalists.

BTW, telling the world (and الجزيرة نت for that matter!) that, "Officers and troops work hand in glove in military operations on the ground, they aren’t separated from each other, and it is of course the officers who are in command." is really going to help their safety on the ground in Iraq following the disgraceful behaviour of your NOTW colleagues last week, isn't it? :roll:



But despite what we think of journos, well done Biscuits - good on you mate
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#13
I think that there is a distinct difference in what the New of the World have done with the 2 year old footage and what has been done in the Roberts case. I'm no big fan of the Press but I can see what is being said in this instance.

The NOTW sought only to sell papers and bear in mind that the nutters will use that article to justify the killing of a soldier or a civilian, be that on mobile patrol in Basra or on a bus in Bethnall Green. When the RRF photos were shown, a couple of contractors out in the Middle East were topped in revenge. How soon we forget. They weren't even in the Mob. I sometimes feel that some of the Press set out to do right by us but get lost on the way. There are others like the NOTW who merely see us as a meal ticket. When we're up, they love us and when we're down they sh*t on us. Bit like how they treat the English National Football Team.

The NOTW is read by many soldiers. It's not real journalism, it's sensationalism, it's easy on the eye, it shows tits when it can and squaddies love it, just like they love the Currant Bun. The only way you are going to hurt these people is to stop buying their papers and to stop your mates buying them. The anti Sun campaign on this site fell apart and the Sun had the last laugh. You see, we whine when they have a go, but the truth is we don't really care that much. We'll still ask for 'twos up' on the Sun in the Mess at NAAFI break. No need to go into denial, just bear that in mind this week and you'll see what I mean. If it bothers you so much, stop buying them. But you'll be reading the NOTW next Sunday and the Sunday after and the Sunday after that, even if a Tom gets slotted or a bus gets blown up. Soldiers are fickle people at the best of times but heads up boys, this time it's serious. Not one of us doubts that those images will be used as justification to send someone home freight class.

Irrespective, the Roberts issue needs investigating and if the Press won't prompt it who will? The Generals? Let's not be all that supportive of the management here. I'm not promoting mutiny, but if that was your brother who was killed, how would you feel. How can you have a police force who are stopped from doing their job by their management? How can you have faith in a system which allows for that?

It goes against everything we stand for. It's not good for morale. It never will be and it should be stopped.

Don't get confused between the aims of the NOTW and every other journalist. To the NOTW you sell papers and if you die doing so, you'll sell some more.
 
#14
micksmith said:
Interesting comments on this thread, particularly given the widespread anger over media coverage of the video. Anyone who wants to see the text of the letter from the Attorney-General to Hoon can read it on my TimesOnline blog which refers to ARRSE.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/

You see Mick you don't gain our respect by simply appearing to be friendly, you know that after your time in the RA and Int Corps. The fact is you are out of touch with todays army (you left 24 years ago!!)

You do purport to understand the middle east and should given your experiences., so what is your angle on this story?,
 
#15
I'm also with Biscuits on this one.

Rumour and conjecture are both highly dangerous. Let's get some facts on the table and consider them before we start throwing ill-considered insults at journalists.

Let's also recognise that some journalists do indeed have integrity - for example, a certain W.S. Churchill spent some time as a journalist - but I'm not too sure if Murdoch was around at the time....
 
#16
Asking whether the people posting are officers are not misses the point. From what those posting said, it is clear they would have acted differently. I'm not pointing the finger at all officers, only asking where were the officers in these particular cases. Out of touch with today's army. I dont think so. I've spent a lot of time with soldiers over the past few years as defence correspondent of first the Telegraph and now the Sunday Times and I recognise the same army with the same frustrations.

The worrying thing is that in a few cases in a few regiments the people who should be keeping things under control don't seem to know how to. Opinions culled from ARRSE. Afraid not. Look at the timing of the two posts. I'm a fast writer but not that fast and anyway the question about the location of the officers was made in the Sunday Times article. As for those posting, they seem to know a lot more about the warrant officer's career than I do. Not guilty I'm afraid.

What's my opinion? Well some of it's up there on the blog. Do you really want my opinion Outstanding? Well you asked for it and anyone who doesnt can stop reading now. The army I served in made its mistakes in Northern Ireland, and they were pretty horrendous, happening in front of the television cameras and against people who were citizens of the UK. But it was still one of the best armies in the world in my opinion. The Iraq War will not go down as a major success that's for sure. But the British Army remains one of the best in the world, if not the best, and there is general agreement to that among any of the people from other armies I get to talk to.

Iraq is not the army's fault. Anyone who was out there in the immediate aftermath, when all this stuff was going on. will have seen a lot of good work done by the majority to win hearts and minds, including soldiers working in their spare time to refurbish schools and make life better for the local population. Amarah and the surrounding area went pear-shaped pretty quickly, largely because there were too many people making a lot of money out of crime who had a vested interest in not having anyone policing it properly, even Saddam had more sense than to try to keep them under control.

But there was plenty of goodwill for the British in Basra initially. It has been allowed to drain away. The plans werent in place to get the power and water working quickly enough and whatever they say the politicians wanted to get Iraq out of the news so the troops were kept off the street as much as possible. The local people didnt feel protected from the criminals and the competing militias filled the void, and frankly whatever we did that would have happened once we left if not before. The simple truth is that we went in there with an unrealistic attitude. Anyone governing Iraq has to take account of the realities on the ground and a belief that democracy will cure all ills is wrong-headed.

it's worth remembering that the term hearts and minds came out of the successful British Army campaign against the insurgents in Malaya. The British Army honed those skills in the retreat from Empire and while it wasn't always done under the constraints that people face now, the job got done, and we got out. The job here is simply to hand Iraq over to the local people in accordance with out obligations under the Geneva Conventions . They just have to be able to secure their borders and control their country. That is going to get done, whatever the problems between now and then.

As for trying to be friendly Outstanding. I'm sorry I always try to be friendly. But I'm afraid I'm not going to step into line with all the guys on the other thread who are accusing the News of the World of trying to get soldiers killed. This is nothing to do with the Murdoch press. If the BBC had video of a previously unreported incident of British soldiers beating up Iraqis, they would have reported it too. It was criminal behaviour and it's not the media's job to cover up criminal behaviour, whether it's being committed in the UK or British soldiers in Iraq. As a result of the News of the World's reporting, the army will punish anyone found to have taken part and most would agree that the last bit at least should be done. It isnt the media that did the damage, it's the few guys out of the 80,000 who lost the plot in a half-dozen cases and those in charge of them who didnt stop them.
 
#17
So Mick , what is your opinion of Bremner's decision to disband the Iraqi Army, against the advice of the British I'm led to believe?
 
#19
Well he's here. I can only presume it's cos he misses a quick unforeseen beasting :D
 

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