Treatment of F & C Soldiers

#1
This is still just crap.

When are the MOD going to wake up to providing solutions for the British Servicemen loyally serving the Crown from 46 different F&C countries. These guys and girls serve everywhere we do and die just as easily in various shotholes as English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Manx and Channel Island servicemen. Yet they (and their wives and children) are denied British passports, have to pay huge amounts of their own cash for visas, are routinely harrassed at international borders and as a final insult when then cease to serve the crown, have no right of domilcile in UK.

FFS this is an important issue, there are 7,000+ (limit is 10,000) serving, if they get messed around much more they will start to walk. Someone needs to get a grip and get some answers.

edited for RANT spelling!!
 
#4
Unless conscripted, being a soldier is a job. If you choose to join the army of a foreign country, you become a mercenary.

I'm not trying to cause offence, but that's the sum total of the issue. Foreigners join the British Army for the money or for status within their own country. Neither of these warrant the granting of citizenship or domicile.

There are probably several INDIVIDUAL instances where granting of citizenship or domicile would be a fair sign of gratitude, but to grant such as rote would detract from those who have provided exceptional service.

As far as "if they get messed around much more, they will start to walk" is concerned, I doubt it - unless they can find a better paid job elsewhere.
 
#5
Putteesinmyhands I agree, all F&C soldiers have joined under the same TACOS as any other soldier (excluding Gurkhas of course). Those terms and conditions expect them to return to there country of origin at the end of there service. They accepted those TACOS the same as every other soldier.
 
#7
Got to disagree with you both. These servicemen should be given the resoect they give us to start with. After all it was the British Forces who started actively recruiting F&C in 98, not the other way around. I doubt if many serving soldiers would agree with your views.
 
#8
putteesinmyhands said:
Unless conscripted, being a soldier is a job. If you choose to join the army of a foreign country, you become a mercenary.

I'm not trying to cause offence, but that's the sum total of the issue. Foreigners join the British Army for the money or for status within their own country. Neither of these warrant the granting of citizenship or domicile.

There are probably several INDIVIDUAL instances where granting of citizenship or domicile would be a fair sign of gratitude, but to grant such as rote would detract from those who have provided exceptional service.

As far as "if they get messed around much more, they will start to walk" is concerned, I doubt it - unless they can find a better paid job elsewhere.
But isn't the issue that these soldiers are being treated less favourably than foreigners who are working in the UK, or who gain entry through such arrangements are marriage? I know it is incredibly easy to gain indefinite leave to remain through marriage. Get married, 2 years later, you have indefinite leave to remain, even if your grasp of the english language is, at best, tenuous. I personally know of 2 such persons. I know also of several mongolian asylum seekers who have been granted indefinitite leave to remain despite the fact that they have no qualifications and have been in the country for just about 3 years!
 
#9
Scabster_Mooch said:
putteesinmyhands said:
Unless conscripted, being a soldier is a job. If you choose to join the army of a foreign country, you become a mercenary.

I'm not trying to cause offence, but that's the sum total of the issue. Foreigners join the British Army for the money or for status within their own country. Neither of these warrant the granting of citizenship or domicile.

There are probably several INDIVIDUAL instances where granting of citizenship or domicile would be a fair sign of gratitude, but to grant such as rote would detract from those who have provided exceptional service.

As far as "if they get messed around much more, they will start to walk" is concerned, I doubt it - unless they can find a better paid job elsewhere.
But isn't the issue that these soldiers are being treated less favourably than foreigners who are working in the UK, or who gain entry through such arrangements are marriage? I know it is incredibly easy to gain indefinite leave to remain through marriage. Get married, 2 years later, you have indefinite leave to remain, even if your grasp of the english language is, at best, tenuous. I personally know of 2 such persons. I know also of several mongolian asylum seekers who have been granted indefinitite leave to remain despite the fact that they have no qualifications and have been in the country for just about 3 years!
Do the F&C soldiers not have exactly these same rights?

Not 100% sure but just doing a job for X years does not give you an automatic right to stay.
 

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#10
Scabster_Mooch said:
putteesinmyhands said:
Unless conscripted, being a soldier is a job. If you choose to join the army of a foreign country, you become a mercenary.

I'm not trying to cause offence, but that's the sum total of the issue. Foreigners join the British Army for the money or for status within their own country. Neither of these warrant the granting of citizenship or domicile.

There are probably several INDIVIDUAL instances where granting of citizenship or domicile would be a fair sign of gratitude, but to grant such as rote would detract from those who have provided exceptional service.

As far as "if they get messed around much more, they will start to walk" is concerned, I doubt it - unless they can find a better paid job elsewhere.
But isn't the issue that these soldiers are being treated less favourably than foreigners who are working in the UK, or who gain entry through such arrangements are marriage? I know it is incredibly easy to gain indefinite leave to remain through marriage. Get married, 2 years later, you have indefinite leave to remain, even if your grasp of the english language is, at best, tenuous. I personally know of 2 such persons. I know also of several mongolian asylum seekers who have been granted indefinitite leave to remain despite the fact that they have no qualifications and have been in the country for just about 3 years!
Or they could jsut hijack a plane, its easier, and you get a better house...
 
#11
I must agree with outstanding. These guys are fighting and dying in Iraq, their blood mixing with ours. I would much rather that they received UK passports than the majority of toerags you see on the streets of our cities (native and immigrant).

I also struggle to understand the mentality of someone who thinks that it is a good thing that our soldiers are incovenienced and put to expense for the public good.
 

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#12
I think i should quickly add that i agree that serving in the armed forces should give rewards to F & C, as long as they have a good service record and and a minimum lenght of service...
 
#13
Steven said:
Scabster_Mooch said:
putteesinmyhands said:
Unless conscripted, being a soldier is a job. If you choose to join the army of a foreign country, you become a mercenary.

I'm not trying to cause offence, but that's the sum total of the issue. Foreigners join the British Army for the money or for status within their own country. Neither of these warrant the granting of citizenship or domicile.

There are probably several INDIVIDUAL instances where granting of citizenship or domicile would be a fair sign of gratitude, but to grant such as rote would detract from those who have provided exceptional service.

As far as "if they get messed around much more, they will start to walk" is concerned, I doubt it - unless they can find a better paid job elsewhere.
But isn't the issue that these soldiers are being treated less favourably than foreigners who are working in the UK, or who gain entry through such arrangements are marriage? I know it is incredibly easy to gain indefinite leave to remain through marriage. Get married, 2 years later, you have indefinite leave to remain, even if your grasp of the english language is, at best, tenuous. I personally know of 2 such persons. I know also of several mongolian asylum seekers who have been granted indefinitite leave to remain despite the fact that they have no qualifications and have been in the country for just about 3 years!
Do the F&C soldiers not have exactly these same rights?

Not 100% sure but just doing a job for X years does not give you an automatic right to stay.
I am not 100% sure myself, but the impression i get is that there is no real problems getting indifinite leave to remain once you qualify. That was why i cited the marriage cases. The approval of the applications seem to be granted as a matter of course once you qualify. The impression is get from outstanding's first post is that FnC servicemen have problems getting indefinite leave to remain even though they qualify (since the minimum contract is 4 years, and 4 years working here qualifies you to get indefinite leave to remain.)
 
#14
F&C Soldiers only gain the right to stay after a 4 year period of residence "in UK". That means actually in UK. So if you serve for 15 years but serve 11 in Germany/ Iraq/Bonia/Kosovo/Afghanistan/Cyprus/Canada/Falklands etc you don't qualify.

If you hijack an Afghan plane, - straight in, no bother!!
 
#15
Outstanding said:
F&C Soldiers only gain the right to stay after a 4 year period of residence "in UK". That means actually in UK. So if you serve for 15 years but serve 11 in Germany/ Iraq/Bonia/Kosovo/Afghanistan/Cyprus/Canada/Falklands etc you don't qualify.

If you hijack an Afghan plane, - straight in, no bother!!
:!: :!: That makes no sense at all! It seems a matter of commonsense that as long as you are serving, you should be deemed to be resident in the UK?
 
#17
Scabster_Mooch said:
But isn't the issue that these soldiers are being treated less favourably than foreigners who are working in the UK, or who gain entry through such arrangements are marriage? I know it is incredibly easy to gain indefinite leave to remain through marriage. Get married, 2 years later, you have indefinite leave to remain, even if your grasp of the english language is, at best, tenuous. I personally know of 2 such persons. I know also of several mongolian asylum seekers who have been granted indefinitite leave to remain despite the fact that they have no qualifications and have been in the country for just about 3 years!
But why grant them more benefits than the British British soldier. He already has citizenship and domicile, so what additional benefit are you going to give him in lieu in order to recognise his contribution? And can the TA soldier have a little bit more because he's holding down two jobs?

If you accept the fact that being a soldier is just a job, then there's no justification in granting any further benefits. If you try to argue that the soldier is "doing something for his country" then you've got to accept that there are a lot of civvies doing something equally beneficial for their country (though in their case, this is done purely voluntarily, without recompense, and the luckiest ones may get an MBE - an order devalued by it's prevalent issue to actors, singers and professional sportsmen for doing nothing more than their jobs).
 
#18
Scabster_Mooch said:
Outstanding said:
F&C Soldiers only gain the right to stay after a 4 year period of residence "in UK". That means actually in UK. So if you serve for 15 years but serve 11 in Germany/ Iraq/Bonia/Kosovo/Afghanistan/Cyprus/Canada/Falklands etc you don't qualify.

If you hijack an Afghan plane, - straight in, no bother!!
:!: :!: That makes no sense at all! It seems a matter of commonsense that as long as you are serving, you should be deemed to be resident in the UK?
My time served abroad was accepted as UK residency and makes me eligable for a British passport should I want one. Although I do realise that Ireland being an EU member state makes the rules slightly different.
 
#19
Scabster_Mooch said:
Outstanding said:
F&C Soldiers only gain the right to stay after a 4 year period of residence "in UK". That means actually in UK. So if you serve for 15 years but serve 11 in Germany/ Iraq/Bonia/Kosovo/Afghanistan/Cyprus/Canada/Falklands etc you don't qualify.

If you hijack an Afghan plane, - straight in, no bother!!
:!: :!: That makes no sense at all! It seems a matter of commonsense that as long as you are serving, you should be deemed to be resident in the UK?
Absolutely, if the Government claim that you are not then they owe me a great deal of income tax back. All forces personnel serving overseas are deemed UK resident (although i have no doubt that this rule is changed, waivered and re-written depending on the most favourable outcome for Gordon Brown).
 
#20
The Immigrationan and Nationality Depratment (IND) rules on this are quite clear, in terems of the IND rules to qualify for a right to domicile you must be on UK shores.
 

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