Training Supplements

[mac7778]

Hi all.

Having spent the last few years boxing and spending all my time keeping my weight down i have now started trying to increase my size and muscle mass.

Was wondering what people are using as supplements for weight gain and what sort of results you have been getting.

 

[Dragstrip]

I find that beer does the trick.

 

[mac7778]

I find that beer does the trick.

Ye........................not the sortta weight gain i had in mind.

 

[Hypno85]

If you get maximuscle don't get the orange flavor i have it in cyclone and i cant drink it. The smell makes me want to throw up and the taste makes me want to throw up lol. Lucky they have a no hassle refund policy because its going back.

 

[Fallschirmjager]

Have a read here mate:

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/

 

[mac7778]

Have a read here mate:

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/

Quality cheers lads

 

[Dragstrip]

If you want to build muscle you need to do a couple of things:

Train. For this you need to eat carbs and fat in order to sustain exercise duration and intensity. Be careful; if you eat too much you will get fat, too little and you'll fail.

Recover and Build. For this you need to rest lots and eat some protein. Protein is not easily stored so your body excretes surplus (this is the basis of the Atkins Diet). However, it tastes crap. Effective recovery is essential. When you train hard you are effectively damaging your muscle tissue; if you don't recover before exercising again you risk creating internal scar tissue rather than fresh and strong muscle growth. Beware of DOMS (delayed onset of muscle soreness); your muscles don't tell you that they are properly knackered until about 36 hours after intense exercise. So, it can be easy to overtrain.

Good sources of protein are fish and red meat. I eat pilchards; mmmm, lovely.

Science In Sport (SiS) do a good range of sport fuels including protein suppliments. Watch out for their 'Rego' recovery fuel, it makes you fart like you'd never imagine. Personally, I only use carbs in powder form (eg SiS PSP22) and get my protein from my normal diet, but for your purposes, you might need to suppliment.

Science In Sport:

http://www.scienceinsport.com/

Click the tab 'suppliments' on the site for some really good advice.

Tsk, bodybuilders; they're all big pervs if you ask me.

 

[botfeckid]

Right, here I go crying in the wilderness...

NO SUPPLEMENTS ARE NECESSARY!!!!

Don't believe me?

1. Here's a calculator from a climbing website:

Protein requirements

2. Note also this point about maximal needs:

* US RDA recommends 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal body weight per day. The UK Department of Health and Social Security is approximately the same.

If you are currently doing endurance training your daily protein requirement increases by 1 to 1.2 grams per kilogram of ideal body weight per day. However, there is no recommended daily protein requirement for weight or strength training. Additionally, the daily requirements do not increase for people over their ideal body weight. This is because amino acids are not needed to support fat cells.

3. Bottom line? your absolute maximum protein intake should be around 2 grams of protein per kilo body weight per day, if you are seeking to put on mass... For a 15 stone individual (that's big for a lean, fit person...), this is (2x95) = 190 grams... That's 6.7 ounces...

So a single Quarter Pounder (4 ounces), if we assume it's only 3/4s protein in the notional 4 ounces of meat, is giving you half your daily maximum protein requirement.

If you are actually eating a healthy diet, with chicken and milk involved, there is no need whatsoever to pay the insane prices for these supplements.

4. I would also advise that you consider this point:

Most people meet their daily protein requirements by many times over. In addition there is a misconception that a high protein diet is helpful for training. High protein diets do not help improve muscle strength or aid in training. In fact, high protein diets can be harmful to your health. There is far more risk to your health from high protein diet than from low protein diet.

* Proteins have a high amount of nitrogen. When nitrogen is broken down in the liver it creates ammonia. Ammonia is poisonous. The increased level of ammonia in the body is harmful to cells and may decrease atheletic performance.
* Stress on kidneys occurs when more than 2 grams per kilogram of ideal body weight per day is consumed.
* High levels of protein intake require increased amount of vitamin B6. It is possible to become deficient in vitamin B6 while using a high protein diet.
* Calcium loss, which leads to osteoporosis, occurs with high levels of protein intake.

The best thing to do is balance protein intake in the proper ration with carbohydrates and fats. The ratio of carbs-fat-protein varies from study to study but fits withing the following guidelines:

5. Fallschirmjagaer's link is a good read - but, oooohhh - look who sponsors the forums - maximuscle and hardcore body building...

The vast majority of the supplement industry is a con. Unless there are very specific issues linked to your individual circumstances (ie you are a manual labourer working in Arctic conditions for 12 hours a day, who wants to win the mister universe contest, and who has a muscle wasting disease), it is completely pointless to buy supplements: you are -literally - piissing your money away, and risking your health.

This is not to be rude to those who support/advertise such supplements. The problem is, they confuse the effects of their intensely healthy diet and exercise regime with the irrelevant chucking of assorted whey and protein shakes down their gullets at vast expense. If you have the discipline to eat a healthy, balanced diet, and to work out in a sensible way at least 4 times a week, you will see mass/bulk gains. Do not waste your money on miracle ingredients...

 

[dtmw]

Thing about climbers is that they aren't really looking to pack on loads of weight...

mac, if you go to www.t-nation.com you'll find loads of articles on nutrition and supplements (as well as thousands on training).

The only supplements that I use are protein powder and creatine. Both I take as part of a post workout shake; I'll occasionally have a protein shake separately if I wouldn't otherwise manage to get enough protein in the day (I try to get a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight). Am sure there are other supplements that are useful (fish oils and BCAAs get a very good press) but they do for me.

Remember that supplememnts are just that though. If you haven't got everything else completely in place (diet, training, recovery etc) they're not going to do much good.

 

[brian0635]

supplements are for yank gay ******* gym buddys

 

[mac7778]

supplements are for yank gay * gym buddys

Well take yourself back to the naffi, order another double cheese burger and cheesy chips, get another pint of lager and stop wasting everyones time.

 

[Dragstrip]

Basically, to reflect the point of several of the immediately preceding posts, you do not need to suppliment as you can get all of your dietary needs from, duh, duh, duuuuuuh, your diet. However, suppliments do have certain benefits: they help take away some of the uncertainty of simple diet, they can be more effective/have concentrated effect (if you know what you're doing and know your body (most of us do not)), they make you feel special (like you're embarking on some kind of misterious semi-professional fitness regime), and they make you poorer. One thing is for ertain; they are not some kind of magic bullet and they absolutely will not do the work for you.

 

[botfeckid]

Dtmw, purely out of interest, you aim at a gram per pound of bodyweight: for my 15 stone example, that'll give a target of 210 grams: pretty close to the amount the figures suggest is about right.

But what I don't understand is why you need a protein shake to hit that sort of amount per day?

210 grams is about 7 and a half ounces... If you can't get that down via chicken, tuna, peanuts etc, as part of a balanced diet, there's something I'm missing.

Not doing you any harm, hopefully, but I still see no need to pay for odd tasting powders...

 

[leguy]

I use maximusle promax (whey protein) and it is quite good.
Too build larger muscles you need to do heavy weights but low reps(so ive been told by my gym instructor). But if your joining the army i wouldnt recommend doing that, i would go for low weight but high intensity + high reps.

 

[mac7778]

I use maximusle promax (whey protein) and it is quite good.
Too build larger muscles you need to do heavy weights but low reps(so ive been told by my gym instructor). But if your joining the army i wouldnt recommend doing that, i would go for low weight but high intensity + high reps.

Low weight high reps builds muscular endurence and speed which is what you do an awful lot in boxing training.

But at some point your going to want to build muscle which is where the heavy weights low reps come in which is what im doing at the moment..........hence the question about supplements to help muscle building.

 

[Chillpill]

Maximuscle is a rip off. Try Optimum 100% whey. Just as good, if not better, than maximuscle.You get a massive 5lb tub aswell.

All you need is protein and a clean diet

 

[botfeckid]

Chillpill - they're all 'a rip off'. All you need is a normal diet and lots of exercise. I'll say it again: eating protein supplements is not required to gain weight, and may well risk fun games such as bone thinning and metabolite poisoning. If you can metabolise an abnormal quantity of protein, then feel free. If you are a non-genetically engineered freak, you can't, and the stuff is simply a rapid way of transforming the banknotes in your wallet into urine and ammonia.

For most of us, healthy diet and appropriate exercise will add muscle. Muscle mass builds as a result of the stimulus generated by response to training. That mass requires no more than 2 grams of protein per kilo body weight...

If you weigh a ludicrously large 100 kilos (nearly 16 stones), that's 200 grams of protein per day to gain weight.

That's 7 ounces. That's 2 quarter pounders in McDonalds... total, for your entire daily needs as a bodybuilder.

Exercise planning and correctly balanced diet is far, far more important than absolute protein intake.

The most important consideration when bodybuilding is taking in adequate energy or enough calories. Loads of studies have shown that consuming an additional 2270 - 3630 calories a week (approximately 500 extra calories a day), along with appropriate weight training, will result in one pound of muscle gain.

Muscles rely on glycogen (the energy they use for fuel) to perform work. When bodybuilders replace carbohydrate with protein in their diet, they have lower muscle stores of glycogen. For that reason, a high protein/low carbohydrate diet cannot provide enough glycogen for our muscles, so they feel weak, tired, and fatigue quickly. (FYI, three grams of water are needed for each gram of glycogen we store in our muscles.)

In addition, our bodies need to convert any excess protein we eat in order to burn it as energy or to store it as fat. This process helps us to get rid of the nitrogen contained in amino acids (the building blocks of protein), which we then urinate out; however, this makes us dehydrated, causes muscle cramping, and stresses our liver and kidneys.

As a result, it's important for a bodybuilder to take in enough carbohydrates. They are used to fuel the muscles that you need to help build lean body mass. Lots of extra protein by itself will not add muscular bulk -- carbohydrates actually spare protein so that it can be used to repair muscle tissue, which is how we build muscular strength and size.

How much protein do bodybuilders need? First figure out how many calories you need. If you're not taking in enough calories, you can't build muscle tissue efficiently. That's because your body will be burning most of your calories, not using them to repair muscle tissue. For example, take a 180 pound guy -- if he's moderately active, he probably needs about 2700 calories a day (plus or minus a few) to maintain his weight. Besides his moderate daily activity level, he could burn about 500 calories during an hour of heavy weightlifting. If he wants to add one pound of muscle weight per week, he needs approximately 500 extra calories per day plus about 500 more to make up for the energy deficit from intense weightlifting. This makes his grand total to be around 3700 calories a day.

So how can we translate this number to his protein needs? The RDA for protein has been established at 0.8 grams/kg of body weight for adults. This is not enough to build muscle mass for intense athletes. Although it's difficult to pinpoint a specific number because you have to take into account many variables, research has determined an acceptable range: even at the very high end, the top protein intake needs to be 1.5 - 2.0 g/kg of body weight. For our 180 lb. (divided by 2.2 = 82 kg) lifter, this would be 122 - 164 grams of protein per day. Since protein has 4 calories per gram, then this amount of protein would comprise 13 - 18 percent of his daily caloric intake of 3700 calories; the usual recommendation is about 12 - 15 percent. As you can see, a huge excess of protein is not needed.

It's easy to get enough protein from food -- and quite easy for many people to overdo it. If too much high-fat protein is taken in, and not used, gains may be seen in fat tissue rather than in muscle tissue.

 

[SeanGoesPop]

t-nation for the win.

Any who, If I have a post-workout shake consisting of 50 grams high qualitie quickly absorbing protein after doing something hard on the body (I.E. a strengh workout at the gym or running 5km) the protein will be quickly absorbed by the body, and since it is a fast digesting type, it will be even more so, and go to the place where you just destroyed muscle mass. This reduces post-exercise trauma to the body meaning I can do something tommorow without feeling today's work.

That, or I can eat 2 can's of tuna in quick succesion until it's tea time and I need some more nutrients/food/munchies.

Oh yeh, bot, those 2 quarter pounders will contain.... 50grams of protein.

Please, do not use your shitty techniques to determine how much protein there is in a food due to it's weight, read the back of the packaging or check the web.

In this case, http://app.mcdonalds.com/bagamcmeal?process=item&itemID=5

And 2 cans of tuna is... 250G of fish, how much protein is that by your reckoning... 200grams? No, 28g per can.

Yet another edit, after reading that quote, I can say this one thing... forgot what I was about to say.

 

[botfeckid]

Any who, If I have a post-workout shake consisting of 50 grams high qualitie quickly absorbing protein after doing something hard on the body (I.E. a strengh workout at the gym or running 5km) the protein will be quickly absorbed by the body, and since it is a fast digesting type, it will be even more so, and go to the place where you just destroyed muscle mass. This reduces post-exercise trauma to the body meaning I can do something tomorrow without feeling today's work.

Non-science, I'm afraid. All proteins are broken down in the gut. They physically cannot be absorbed until they are reduced to amino acids. Once they are, words like 'high quality', 'whey', etc etc are irrelevant - they are simply one of the bog-standard building blocks (around 23) of protein that are absorbed. The fact that you had a hard work out before hand is irrelevant to the basic physics of membranes and concentrations, which is what dictates the 'speed' with which amino acids are absorbed across the gut lining into the bloodstream.

And why '50 grams'? why not 500, or 5? A non figure.

Post-exercise trauma has very little to do with amino acids arriving in the bloodstream: it's to do with fatigue toxins building up locally (eg lactic acid). The most important thing you can do to reduce such trauma is a proper warm down, in order to stimulate blood flow through the muscles, and therefore flush out the toxins. How many bodybuilders religiously warm down?

Once again, a balanced diet, and a proper exercise regime, is far more important.

Here's Eugene Sandow:

And here's a bunch of guys from the fifties:

If you want to be bigger than these - pre-supplement - individuals, then the answer is steroids. If you want to be stronger and a 'sensible' bigger, the answer does not require any supplements of any kind.

(Edit: Sean, I completely agree re McDonalds 'health value'. All I was trying to point out was the notional quantity of protein required to gain muscle, which remains, however hard you try to claim otherwise, at under 2 grams/kilo bodyweight. The physical amount equates to a half pound of meat. As such, supplements are irrelevant. Unless you eat no other protein. In which case your diet is screwed. I would personally achieve my 200 grams with lean chicken, tuna and peanuts.)

 

[SeanGoesPop]

I choose 50 because its a nice round number i can fit into my diet on a macro-nutrient level, and it is faster acting than eating some meat if joined with water in the shake, which would help reduce the levels of lactic acid quicker as well (although alot of water to drink whilst exercising is useful as well).

But whatever, I know what's working for me