Tradesmen as CSMs

#1
This statement is in this months MCM Div newsletter in the Craftsman, I found it on their site yesterday. This is what it states,


ARTISAN WO2 - EMPLOYMENT AS A CSM

“As a result of the drawdown of the Regt Spec CEG, REME MCM Div is beginning to find it difficult to fill all Unspec WO2 CSM posts from the remaining pool of Regt Spec SSgts eligible for promotion to WO2. Therefore Artisan SSgts will be considered for employment as CSMs if suitably recommended in their annual reports, as well as being considered for CPD WO and RQMS. Guidance has recently been issued to all reporting officers on this topic.”

Does this mean that after completing postings as CSM's tradesmen will be considered for posts as RSM alongside their RS counterparts? Surely this should be the case. Furthermore with the impending V eng extension surely this could be even more feasible?


The DII link to the original document is shown here . http://www.ms.dii.r.mil.uk/reme/Files/craftsep07.doc
 
#2
With regards to the above; we are already in the RQMS slots which is the senior WO2 post. Traditionaly in the Cavalry and Infantry this is where the next RSM normally comes from as it is such an important appointment. At present there is no WO1 promotion available for us but that will change as did SSgt to WO2. There are three WO1 artisans with the title ASM in the corps but that is peculiar to their trade. The day will not be far away where there will be promotion available to WO1 for Artisans as the norm.

Opening up the slot as CSM is great news for us as it will increase the number of WO2 unspec and therefore put presure on the system to allow further promotion. One of the stumbling blocks will be the qualifying period to make SSgt and WO2 and will have to be addressed.
 
#3
Yeah why not. If the candidate is suitable then there is no reason for not opening up the post.

I'm sure there are dozens of bitter and crustie artisans just rubbing their hands at the thought of unleashing the fury onto the Corps! :twisted:
 
T

the_mentalist

Guest
#4
I disagree, Artisans should be promoted to CSM, if a deserving candidate is out there, but RQMS and RSM? Are you guys having a laugh!
 
#5
I agree, with Artisan's being promoted to CSM, from there would they dare Commission one or two? I don't see why not they have done with RS. I mean it would show that there is another way other than Tiffy.
 
#6
If they do that it could open up some more Artisan Staffy posts, in the future they could actually have 15 VM's getting made up :roll:
 
#7
the_mentalist said:
I disagree, Artisans should be promoted to CSM, if a deserving candidate is out there, but RQMS and RSM? Are you guys having a laugh!
We have been employing Artisan WO2's as RQMS's for sometime now. In most other regiments this is the natural transition to RSM. So why not our corp. What makes us special?

If an artisan can do a good job as a CSM surely he should be given the opportunity to reach the maximum non commissioned rank. He's done his time.

Furthermore with regard to the recent surge on REME MTI's, many of these guys are more qualified than their RS counterparts with skill at arms, CBRN and drill courses. Traditionally it is only the aquisition of these courses that has set our RS friends apart. Times are changes.
 
T

the_mentalist

Guest
#8
Furthermore with regard to the recent surge on REME MTI's, many of these guys are more qualified than their RS counterparts with skill at arms, CBRN and drill courses. Traditionally it is only the aquisition of these courses that has set our RS friends apart. Times are changes.
No amount of courses can make up for real time experience and background knowledge of a given subject. Not just what it says in a pamphlet!
:x :x :x
 
#9
I dont think they will get enough Artisans of the Quality and back ground to cary the job off. I am sure there will be some that will do a fantastic job.

Dave
 
#10
The_Mentalist you are right about background knowledge and experience but; I had no G4 experience when I did the AARQMS course, the same lack of experience that the majority of other students on the course had. The course does, however, teach you just about everything you need to know. The experience comes with being in the post, you can't get experience about the post until you are actually in it and doing it. Nothing about the job as RQMS is rocket science you just have to be able to find constant fastball solutions, which should be within any SNCOs remit by virtue of their proven overall ability to get the job done.

Anyone arrogant enough to think that their trade is exclusive enough to secure future posts or that other trades are not suitable seriously need to have a word with themselves. This will become more apparent when SJAR kicks in.
 
#11
Nothing new under the sun - RAEME have effectively binned the Tiffy system and it works quite well.
All RAEME personnel must pass 3 courses to become a WO:
1. All arms WO Course - drill, discipline etc.
2. Logistics course - RAEME, RAAOC,RACT RAAMC etc all do this course - covers Log Ops in the field.
3. RAEME specific course - Project management, Technical report writing, Science etc. (Tiffy course in 3 months!)

There is no 'selection' phase as such, just the ability to be a SGT and reccomended for WO.

All RAEME do these - be they MTI, Reccy Mech, VM or whatever.

RAEME people can be CSMs, RSMs, ASMs etc. But not C or RQMS - they are all RAAOC.

The world has not stopped, or spun off it's axis, stuff gets fixed and RAEME has just as enviable reputation as REME do.

Worth considering for the big brother of EME Corps worldwide?
 
T

the_mentalist

Guest
#12
Good food for thought there Nige, maybe our Corps should follow suit.

The_Mentalist you are right about background knowledge and experience but; I had no G4 experience when I did the AARQMS course, the same lack of experience that the majority of other students on the course had. The course does, however, teach you just about everything you need to know.
Where your abillity will be tested to the limit as a RQ is whilst manual accounting on Ops! If you can survive an LSI with green accross the board then I will stand down!

However if we as a Corps did the same as the RAEME, it would give Artisans a fighting chance to excell as CSM/RQMS/RSM, then hey....why not a Commission!
 
T

the_mentalist

Guest
#14
Well done RQ, I stand down.

Have you got a solution for my G4 LEAN problem? Check out my thread.
 
#16
As an artisan going nowhere, I was considering the RQ option. I realise that I may not have the best background but to be honest I have met some poor cqms/rqms in my service and they seem to have survived and moved on.
 
#17
Based on this argument can an RS soldier do an NVQ in Mechanic'ing and be an equivalent VM. I think not. Experience is everything! I applaud those who have been the exception but they are just that!
 
#18
Well it was going to happen 1 day. This is now back to full circle 70s 80s with the CSM having a large part of mil trg as his responsability. From my memory and because many of them had spent their years swinging spanners on the shop floor and in some cases drinking coffee in the ece shop the mil trg they delivered was pretty shiite.
This Corps is never really gonna move forward unless they are prepared to detach "out of role" as military training staff to a teeth arms unit with some regimental pride and status. We all know what auntie records as she used to be known will think of that.
TB
 
#19
Duff-dight said:
Based on this argument can an RS soldier do an NVQ in Mechanic'ing and be an equivalent VM. I think not. Experience is everything! I applaud those who have been the exception but they are just that!
I think you are wrong. If RS (or whatever they are named now) does the appropriate NVQ then of course he/she can do the job. This would be no different to any tradesman. The learning curve would be no different than anyone else who starts out on a new path. There is, however, quite a difference to your analogy at a more senior level; by the time you become a senior you already have a wealth of experience and courses under your belt with regards to management and that is what SNCO/WOs are expected to do. Management principles and techniques are pretty generic in terms of what you do and how you do it to achieve the end result. Also, I know of two Artisans who have held the post of CSM, it isn't rocket science. A CSM is a manager that delivers training, an RQ is a manager that delivers G4 support, an AQMS is a manager that provides ES, there is a pattern in there... Civvy street allocates its managers on a requirement basis - 'you are now in charge of XYZ Dept, get on with it'. I don't think we are or should be any different.

I'm off my soapbox now...
 
#20
electric_citizen said:
Duff-dight said:
Based on this argument can an RS soldier do an NVQ in Mechanic'ing and be an equivalent VM. I think not. Experience is everything! I applaud those who have been the exception but they are just that!
I think you are wrong. If RS (or whatever they are named now) does the appropriate NVQ then of course he/she can do the job. This would be no different to any tradesman. The learning curve would be no different than anyone else who starts out on a new path. There is, however, quite a difference to your analogy at a more senior level; by the time you become a senior you already have a wealth of experience and courses under your belt with regards to management and that is what SNCO/WOs are expected to do. Management principles and techniques are pretty generic in terms of what you do and how you do it to achieve the end result. Also, I know of two Artisans who have held the post of CSM, it isn't rocket science. A CSM is a manager that delivers training, an RQ is a manager that delivers G4 support, an AQMS is a manager that provides ES, there is a pattern in there... Civvy street allocates its managers on a requirement basis - 'you are now in charge of XYZ Dept, get on with it'. I don't think we are or should be any different.

I'm off my soapbox now...
Elect_C, you have hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned. As a REME soldier we all receive much the same military training and gain much the same experience in terms of military life. To attempt to make a comparison with regards to VMing is complete pish! An RS soldier does not go through his army career being exposed to VMing on a daily basis, however Vm's do go through their careers being exposed to soldiering, discipline and management it's what we do. I cannot see a valid reason why a tradesman cannot take up an RSM's job.
 
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