Tracing the movement of a private owned shotgun.

#1
Hi Good people, I need to trace the placement of an antique shotgun from a licence holder into a RFD. I am unsure of the serial number, has anyone got any ideas? Discretion is required.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#2
RFD records are not publicly accessible. Some companies re use serial numbers just to confuse the issue!
 
#3
RFD records are not publicly accessible. Some companies re use serial numbers just to confuse the issue!
Private investigator then?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#4
Private investigator then?
Howwill that help? I don't show my records to anyone but my feo, you used to be able to buy records when businesses disposed of them but that doesn't happen anymore. You need access to the national database, a warrant card and still you won't find out if its been sold by a dealer to a dealer.
 
#5
Hi Good people, I need to trace the placement of an antique shotgun from a licence holder into a RFD. I am unsure of the serial number, has anyone got any ideas? Discretion is required.
Is there a receipt? What do you mean by ‘antique’?

If you suspect fraud or other criminal offence you can approach the Police. They can check the RFDs Register for entries on the date(s) concerned. However, unless it goes to Court you’re unlikely to get sight of the entry if there is one. It may have been sold on, cut up, put up for auction etc.
Private investigator then?
That won’t matter as it’s either seized as part of a criminal investigation or produced on request to a person authorised in writing by the chief officer of police aka a Firearm Enquiry Officer.
 
#7
Is this still to do with your dad's estate?
Yes. My half bro in law does an awful lot of whining about it but takes little action. Accurate records are what is required but I have no access. Any ideas?
 
#8
Howwill that help? I don't show my records to anyone but my feo, you used to be able to buy records when businesses disposed of them but that doesn't happen anymore. You need access to the national database, a warrant card and still you won't find out if its been sold by a dealer to a dealer.
Interestingly a mate of mine was required to hand in his register to the Police when he gave up his RFD.. not sure where it says this in the Law, but there you go..

I might just maintain a shadow register...!
 
#9
Interestingly a mate of mine was required to hand in his register to the Police when he gave up his RFD.. not sure where it says this in the Law, but there you go..

I might just maintain a shadow register...!
Section 38(8 ). RFDs can request to be removed from the Police Register or be notified of the Police intention to remove them from the Register.
Firearms Act 1968
 

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#10
I'm am FEO. I quite enjoy checking Shogun to see who's got the most guns. ******* terrifying how many some private owners have.
 
#11
Yes. My half bro in law does an awful lot of whining about it but takes little action. Accurate records are what is required but I have no access. Any ideas?
I'll ask the wife. When she took care of her mum's estate I know she had to keep accurate records to show where everything had gone and they were open to inspection by affected parties - I recall the records have to be kept for 7 years. Her problem was that a brother had gone walkabout years before and should he ever return the records had to be available for his inspection.

I disposed of the MiL's car to a college of mech eng as a dontaion but, I remember the paper trail I had to gather for that donation. So, I would assume that a shotgun would require a similar paper trail and then some as it is a licensable item which can only be disposed of to a suitably qualified individual/business. Those people have licenses with numbers, names and addresses on them so any record should show those.
 
#12
I'm am FEO. I quite enjoy checking Shogun to see who's got the most guns. ******* terrifying how many some private owners have.
I did a 2 month attachment with the force HQ senior FEO years ago back before the pistol ban. I too was astounded what was out there, a couple or three Colonel's and Brigadiers retd. with what amounted to Sect 5 collections tucked away in the family pile.
 
#13
Section 38(8 ). RFDs can request to be removed from the Police Register or be notified of the Police intention to remove them from the Register.
Firearms Act 1968
No, you misunderstand me..

The police insisted that he hand in his firearms register in which he was required by the Firearms act to maintain. The passage you are quoting refers to the Police Register of Firearms Dealers, and basically says the RFDs can remove themselves from the register or the Police can remove them from the register.

There is nothing in the FA 68 that requires RFDs to surrender their register of sales when they cease trading. In the past these registers stayed with the firms or went to libraries etc and were a source of validating firearms.
 
#14
I'm am FEO. I quite enjoy checking Shogun to see who's got the most guns. ******* terrifying how many some private owners have.
1. Why is this "terrifying"? Holding of firearms are subject to a strict vetting system of which you are a part, and is perfectly legal.
2. I suspect you are in breach of DPA 18 if you are accessing Shogun for a reason not directly involving your work. AFAIK your duties are to carry out specific enquiries in support of firearms licence applications or renewals. I fail to see how you think cruising personal information for your entertainment and salacious curiosity is justified or indeed legal?
 
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#15
No, you misunderstand me..

The police insisted that he hand in his firearms register in which he was required by the Firearms act to maintain. The passage you are quoting refers to the Police Register of Firearms Dealers, and basically says the RFDs can remove themselves from the register or the Police can remove them from the register.

There is nothing in the FA 68 that requires RFDs to surrender their register of sales when they cease trading. In the past these registers stayed with the firms or went to libraries etc and were a source of validating firearms.
38(8 ) as amended includes the Register of transactions whether paper or computer record within 21 days:
8 )
Where the chief officer of police causes the name of a firearms dealer to be removed from the register, he shall by notice in writing require the dealer to surrender his certificate of registration [F1and the register of transactions kept by him under section 40 of this Act][F2(or, if the register is kept by means of a computer, a copy of the information comprised in that register in a visible and legible form)]; and it is an offence for the dealer to fail to do so within twenty-one days from the date of the notice:
Amended by 13 (3) of the ‘88 Act: Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988
And Schedule 2 of the ‘97 Act: Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997
 
#16

ugly

LE
Moderator
#17
I'm am FEO. I quite enjoy checking Shogun to see who's got the most guns. ******* terrifying how many some private owners have.
Why, at the most they can only use two at a time. The beauty of the section 2 is that the onus is on the holder to secure what he buys.
Ive been more terrified by the ********* driving over the speed limit far more times than by someone with a gun and I'll include the handful of times on ops.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#18
Essentially it is impossible for the Police or an individual to accurately track a shotgun. About the only time is when they are stolen or someone makes an entry error such as duplicating a serial number or missing the model name. Often a maker will allocate blocks of serial numbers, it is ok to use the same block for another type of shotgun by the same firm, it causes confusion when they use the same block for a different model of gun with the same action. Often model names aren't required to be recorded. The same can apply to rifles.
If an individual sells a gun to a dealer then the police will or rather should know that the transaction occurred. They wont know unless they ask if the dealer sold it on to another dealer, a certificate holder in another force area (I know force but the jocks stopped us using counties and its not a service) or consigned it to auction whence it could have gone overseas. It takes a lot of digging by the Police to do this.
I was involved in a similar enquiry as I had purchased a lot of .25 ACP ammo in the 90's. TVP rang me up as someone had used .25 in an attempted murder. They wanted to know who I had sold it to. I hadn't we had shot it off in vest pocket pistol comps at the club.
To say he was frustrated would be accurate, I would have said upset as he couldn't find any sales of the ammo that decade recorded anywhere.. I told him I didnt have to account for each round and was unlikely to have kept the cases as the club reloaded for these comps. Someone using (unlikely as it may seem) a .25 acp pistol to kill someone was probably given/sold the ammo with the pistol. He didn't like being told that either and I couldn't let him test my pistol as I had sold it since (all recorded) so he would struggle to find the pistols we used as most were club guns, it was before a national computer database was even discussed so out of luck was he!
 

MrBane

LE
Moderator
Kit Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#19
1. Why is this "terrifying"? Holding of firearms are subject to a strict vetting system of which you are a part, and is perfectly legal.
2. I suspect you are in breach of DPA 18 if you are accessing Shogun for a reason not directly involving your work. AFAIK your duties are to carry out specific enquiries in support of firearms licence applications or renewals. I fail to see how you think cruising personal information for your entertainment and salacious curiosity is justified or indeed legal?
1. Less to do with person and quantity, more to do with where they live and who lives in that street with them - i.e, gangsters.

2. Nope, completely legal as it's the holders in my responsible area, so I'm allowed to check to verify all data held, etc, etc. It's the same as any system, not always up to date - so actually it's fairly worthwhile for both owner and police to spot check what's on it.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#20
2. Nope, completely legal as it's the holders in my responsible area, so I'm allowed to check to verify all data held, etc, etc. It's the same as any system, not always up to date - so actually it's fairly worthwhile for both owner and police to spot check what's on it.
Frankly on my last coterminous renewal of personal certificates they had lost all of the notices I had sent concerning sales or disposals and also acquisitions. Luckily I had transferred most of the stuff to and from myself! It only resulted in two phone calls. Funny how the system didn't pick up the duplication in two separate counties. I suspect the system isn't as good as it should be!
I had a phone call from the Met last month so I asked for an email. This is is the model difference but same serial number problem. Luckily I had the bill of sale from the auction house to prove the serial number.
 

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