Tory MP Stabbed

Even if his suggestion wasnt linked to the recent murder, he should **** off. Who the **** does he think he is wanting a member of the god squad to trample over a crime scene, a scene with possible further threats, a scene where trained people are trying to save a life and a scene where religious people have not been asked for?
The man is a ******* idiot.

Quit sitting on the fence and tell us how you really feel. :)
 
I thought this quite interesting.

I did not know that our MPs had their own threat level. I am not saying they shouldn't mind, just a new one on me.

 

Mr_Baiter

War Hero
Would that be the present government that planned and invested the nation's world-leading response to Covid-19 or some other present government of which only you are aware?
While the vaccine programme was world leading and quite a logistical feat the government's response to the outbreak will probably be judged by history as below par.

Current planning for transport problems, booster vaccines and post brexit European trade may also be judged inadequate.

I voted brexit and Conservative BTW and they still have my qualified support- although that is mainly because there is no viable alternative.
 
While the vaccine programme was world leading and quite a logistical feat the government's response to the outbreak will probably be judged by history as below par.

Current planning for transport problems, booster vaccines and post brexit European trade may also be judged inadequate.

I voted brexit and Conservative BTW and they still have my qualified support- although that is mainly because there is no viable alternative.

Still, so long as you can get your digs in, right?

24/7 whining is quite the thing in this modern age.
 
Are you saying there's a whiff of feet about the esteemed gentleperson?
 

Slime

LE
The medics were trying to save his life.

I’m watching it on BBC, arseholés trying to make political gain over it.

Lots of the MSM have covered this aspect.
Its far from just a BBC thing, and has been criticised by other police, MPs or catholic callers to phone ins.

At the end of the day the police line/theory on why they didn’t allow this religious last comfort is utter nonsense.
If the scene had to be preserved above all also to preserve evidence the paramedics wouldn’t have been allowed near him.

They were allowed in and around him, and would have been fully hands on (it’s safe to assume). I’d suspect it was simply ignorance or panic on the part of the police that let someone decide a priest wouldn’t be allowed in………take your pic of those two :)

If this had happened in NI I suspect the priest would have been allowed in as the police would be more familiar with the concept.
 

TamH70

MIA
Lots of the MSM have covered this aspect.
Its far from just a BBC thing, and has been criticised by other police, MPs or catholic callers to phone ins.

At the end of the day the police line/theory on why they didn’t allow this religious last comfort is utter nonsense.
If the scene had to be preserved above all also to preserve evidence the paramedics wouldn’t have been allowed near him.

They were allowed in and around him, and would have been fully hands on (it’s safe to assume). I’d suspect it was simply ignorance or panic on the part of the police that let someone decide a priest wouldn’t be allowed in………take your pic of those two :)

If this had happened in NI I suspect the priest would have been allowed in as the police would be more familiar with the concept.

I'm with dingerr on this one, I'm afraid. Holy rollers of whatever stripe have no business on an active crime scene. Paramedics have a role, as do police officers. Padres or whatever they call themselves have none. Unless they happen to be also police officers and/or paramedics.
 
Such insight, such understanding as to what the victim (and probably his family) would have wanted.
And the police know what the victim and family would want? And even if they did, that mean potentially ruining a crime scene and possibly putting someone in a danger.
The priest isn't the only ******* idiot.
 

Slime

LE
I'm with dingerr on this one, I'm afraid. Holy rollers of whatever stripe have no business on an active crime scene. Paramedics have a role, as do police officers. Padres or whatever they call themselves have none. Unless they happen to be also police officers and/or paramedics.

I suppose this boils down to whether a person is religious, and Sir David Amess was a catholic, and very well known for his faith.

If we play devils advocate, and the MP had been a muslim, and the police had refused entry to an imam to carry out some ‘necessary‘ islamic ritual the MSM would be going mental, and accusing the police of Islamophobia or islamic hatred etc.

Let’s not forgot that the freedom to follow a religious belief is a right in the UK.
Lets not also forget that in active crime scenes as you describe them, the police or paramedics often allow partners/spouses or parents to hold the hand etc of a relative injured or dying after an attack.
In some cases police have specifically phoned parents for this exact purpose.

As per above, I think ignorance of the catholic faith or panic prevented the priest being allowed in.
 
Given they'd already nicked the suspect by then,
They think they have nicked the suspect at the time. I can imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if a member of the God squad also got killed because the police were holding the wrong suspect or there was a second killer.
 
I suppose this boils down to whether a person is religious, and Sir David Amess was a catholic, and very well known for his faith.

If we play devils advocate, and the MP had been a muslim, and the police had refused entry to an imam to carry out some ‘necessary‘ islamic ritual the MSM would be going mental, and accusing the police of Islamophobia or islamic hatred etc.

Let’s not forgot that the freedom to follow a religious belief is a right in the UK.
Lets not also forget that in active crime scenes as you describe them, the police or paramedics often allow partners/spouses or parents to hold the hand etc of a relative injured or dying after an attack.
In some cases police have specifically phoned parents for this exact purpose.

As per above, I think ignorance of the catholic faith or panic prevented the priest being allowed in.

I'd never heard of David Amess or knew his religion before he got stabbed, how are the police supposed to know?

I'm pretty sure that if there was a terror attack involving a Muslim, an imam would be going nowhere near a live scene.
The right to follow a religious belief doesn't mean the right to **** about at a murder scene.
 

TamH70

MIA
I suppose this boils down to whether a person is religious, and Sir David Amess was a catholic, and very well known for his faith.

If we play devils advocate, and the MP had been a muslim, and the police had refused entry to an imam to carry out some ‘necessary‘ islamic ritual the MSM would be going mental, and accusing the police of Islamophobia or islamic hatred etc.

Let’s not forgot that the freedom to follow a religious belief is a right in the UK.
Lets not also forget that in active crime scenes as you describe them, the police or paramedics often allow partners/spouses or parents to hold the hand etc of a relative injured or dying after an attack.
In some cases police have specifically phoned parents for this exact purpose.

As per above, I think ignorance of the catholic faith or panic prevented the priest being allowed in.

Wot Stacker said above. As far as your bit which I've bolded, that's true. I can't ask for an Atheist preacher to come in and hold my hand as I lie dying due to some scum stabbing me because of his religious faith, as such a thing doesn't exist. What about my rights?
 

Slime

LE
Wot Stacker said above. As far as your bit which I've bolded, that's true. I can't ask for an Atheist preacher to come in and hold my hand as I lie dying due to some scum stabbing me because of his religious faith, as such a thing doesn't exist. What about my rights?

But you could ask for someone to come and hold your hand……if you were able to speak, and people can and do do this!

It‘s fine to pretend you are hard done by not having a faith, but its just pretending for the sake of it imho.

Going back to your rights, an atheist would also have the right to refuse the attendance of a vicar, priest or imam etc as they had no faith.

In short you have the right to ask for, or refuse anyone you want, so you have just as many rights as Sir David Amess…………Except of course, you might have more rights as his rights were refused.

Lets not forget you also have the right to refuse medical treatment.

I suspect there will be other posters who will come along and decide exactly what Sir David Amess should have been allowed to have……and completely ignore what he might have wanted himself……After all, who gives a stuff what he would have wanted……..it‘s those who weren’t there, or aren’t catholics that count, right?

I fit in the above group, I wasn’t there, but I do know he WAS a practicing catholic.
I feel that anyone with a religion should be allowed to have any religious rights, just as I feel those with no religion shouldn’t be forced to have religious things they don’t want…simple :)

We don’t need to agree on this. :)
I think Sir David should have been allowed to have his religious belief honoured, you might not, either way it’s too late for him now as his religious rights were ignored.
 
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I genuinely don't understand the faith thing. Have been told it is a defect in me but I can't change my mental condition.

Saying that, I have been present on a number of occasions when last rites were given . On one occasion, I took a Catholic Priest to a body of a lady who was at least two days dead to do the necessary. Whilst I left him alone, I guess he would have done last rites so I don't think denial of these things at scene precludes doing things afterwards. This was in the open but surely such things could be done afterwards in a mortuary.

A denial at scene is seen as common sense by Constables due to disturbance of scene,,possibility of I.E.D and possible presence of further attackers either in view or waiting an opportunity from hidden places either inside or outside the immediate scene. Firearms cannot be discounted at longer range.

I was not there so don't know what happened but I would err on the side of the police decision until a full view of the immediate crime scene impact was available.
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
A catholic at a the scene of a terrorist incident? Sounds normal to me
 
But you could ask for someone to come and hold your hand……if you were able to speak, and people can and do do this!

It‘s fine to pretend you are hard done by not having a faith, but its just pretending for the sake of it imho.

Going back to your rights, an atheist would also have the right to refuse the attendance of a vicar, priest or imam etc as they had no faith.

In short you have the right to ask for, or refuse anyone you want, so you have just as many rights as Sir David Amess…………Except of course, you might have more rights as his rights were refused.

Lets not forget you also have the right to refuse medical treatment.

I suspect there will be other posters who will come along and decide exactly what Sir David Amess should have been allowed to have……and completely ignore what he might have wanted himself……After all, who gives a stuff what he would have wanted……..it‘s those who weren’t there, or aren’t catholics that count, right?

I fit in the above group, I wasn’t there, but I do know he WAS a practicing catholic.
I feel that anyone with a religion should be allowed to have any religious rights, just as I feel those with no religion shouldn’t be forced to have religious things they don’t want…simple :)

We don’t need to agree on this. :)
I think Sir David should have been allowed to have his religious belief honoured, you might not, either way it’s too late for him now as his religious rights were ignored.
You don't know what he wanted, he was bleeding out on the floor. It would be a stupid action to expect police, to know someone's religion, ask that person (while the paramedic are trying to save his life) if he wanted a member of the clergy, know if the area was safe, check the credentials of the godbod and let someone else into a crime scene.

His (and everyone elses) "religious rights" do not top trump being kept out of a terrorist attack scene. Catholics arent special.
 

Arte_et_Marte

ADC
Moderator
Lets not also forget that in active crime scenes as you describe them, the police or paramedics often allow partners/spouses or parents to hold the hand etc of a relative injured or dying after an attack.
In some cases police have specifically phoned parents for this exact purpose.
Have you ever been to the scene of a knife attack? The crime scene, in it's initial phase, is a very busy place, blood snot and bandages everywhere, while professional people try to save life and keep the scene as (evidentially) sterile as possible. It can be gruesome and there is no place for a family member, and I cannot recall a single instance when the crime scene was opened for a family member to hold a hand.

If the crime scene is away from a dwelling, the victims NoK isn't even known at this stage. Things happen very quickly before the victim is pronounced dead and once forensics have finished, the body is taken to the morgue. It is during this phase that identification is processed and when absolutely confirmed, Uniformed Officers attend the NoK, in person, to deliver what is known as the 'death message.'

If it happens in a dwelling, the family are seperated from the actions of the Medics/Police/Forensics as soon as possible. It isn't just about a clean crime scene either, as I said up there, it can be gruesome, the stuff of nightmares, for a family member to see and a distraught person will only complicate the scene.

With regard to Priests. I am of the opinion that they shouldn't be allowed onto a crime scene. I am CoE and my wife was Catholic. We lived in a small village in West Cork when she died (heart attack) sat at home with me. After the funeral I was castigated for not calling the Priest before the 999 call. FFS. As it happened, I never called the Priest at all, somebody else did and he barged past the Guards, that attend every sudden death, and knelt next to my wife while the paramedics worked on her. It was hardly a crime scene though.

They do take it a bit seriously over there.
 
Have you ever been to the scene of a knife attack? The crime scene, in it's initial phase, is a very busy place, blood snot and bandages everywhere, while professional people try to save life and keep the scene as (evidentially) sterile as possible. It can be gruesome and there is no place for a family member, and I cannot recall a single instance when the crime scene was opened for a family member to hold a hand.

If the crime scene is away from a dwelling, the victims NoK isn't even known at this stage. Things happen very quickly before the victim is pronounced dead and once forensics have finished, the body is taken to the morgue. . . .

As a Funeral Director, myself and one other got the call to attend a house for 2 x removals: that in itself set the alarm bells ringing (Essex Police control were not giving too much away over the phone, obvs).

A murder/suicide. By kitchen knife. In front of the wife and a 10-year old boy.

The place looked like a slaughter house.

Even at that (later) stage of the game, the property was still a busy place: techies, photogs, CID, etc.

For the initial attending officer - who was there for up to 10 minutes by himself until the relief skipper turned up - the last thing on his mind was admitting Clergy to the scene.
 

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