Tory MP Stabbed

As the murder rate is roughly double what it was before capital punishment was abolished, it looks like it did deter some people.
An inconvenient fact for those who oppose it.
Can you prove the correlation/causation link?
 
Have those numbers been normalised for the growth in population? Give me a link to the statistics please.

Yes that's why I said rate and not overall numbers.

 
Can you prove the correlation/causation link?

I think stopping the death penalty and seeing the murder rate steadily climb is a good indication that the former is partly responsible for the latter.
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
No one is forced to live in London, there are other places to live in this green and pleasant land

Perhaps if the exodus became swifter, something would be done about it
I doubt it very much. I live in London because that is where the work (and money) is, 7 more years to go and then I can think about moving out but doubt I will due to the OH's circumstances.
 
There are areas all over the UK that could do with more policing, why should 600 MPs get anything special?
There is of course a risk of being stabbed on the streets but for the majority of people, the risk is relatively low level.

That said, I certainly believe that police numbers are far too low and cuts to police budgets should be reversed and the numbers of officers should be significantly increased. That should be a priority.

There are however, some groups of people that can for various reasons be identified as being in a particular risk category. Those reasons can be historic or current and the value of an attack on some groups can generate specific attention such as significant publicity or revenge for perceived threats again of a historic or current nature.

This murder of a member of Parliament has certainly achieved a very public exposure in the media. Whether at this stage, that was the intention of the killer remains to be seen but it is on the front page of every newspaper as far as I’m aware.

We can very much identify therefore that MP’s are currently at high risk of further attacks by either individuals or groups. It’s been demonstrated that they are a relatively easily accessible high profile target.

The priority must be to implement resources to try to safeguard them while they are carrying out their elected duties. In the short term, I think that warrants giving them some police resources until urgent but more permanent measures are put in place.
 
Disgraceful editorial from the Guardian today. Call me an ex-reader.

Can be summarised:

« The death of Sir David Amess, after allegedly being stabbed several times at his Essex constituency surgery on Friday, is shocking. »

Increasing polarisation etc blah blah…

« MPs endure personal abuse on social media, are sent needlessly aggressive emails and have to endure physical intimidation. Female MPs and those from ethnic minorities are disproportionately affected by the wave of toxicity. »
You will note they contrast Bame female and white female figures alone

Thats because elsewhere investigation has revealed that whilst certain Bame MPs get a vastly dissproportionate amount of Abuse* most abuse is directed at White Male Tory MPs.

I’d call being brutally murdered « disproportionately affected » personally! Certainly worse than some nasty emails or tweets!

The Guardian view on Sir David Amess: a shocking political death | Editorial


I note that when they talk of inflamitory language they cite Johnson and his calling a bill a surrender act and a Betrayal, not things such as suggesting Tories are Scum or should be Lynched or that Tories are all facists / murderers Bigots or even Jess Phillips saying she would stab Corbyn in the front not the back. One assumes because were still playing the its only dangerous inflammatory language from the right - from the left is colourful expressions everyone knows are harmless - rank hypocrisy - but one thats become so ingrained its the accepted position.


*Abbott in particular generally attacking her for being a thick racist - often accompanied by racist abuse** from her accusser
**Although this does need careful examination -since comparing her to a Black whole is deemed racist since it contains the word black - It can be seen theres some careful manipulation of whats deemed racist ranging from calling her the N word to simply suggesting shes incompetant.
 

endure

GCM
It seems strange where in the US, they have the death penalty and people still commit Capital crimes, knowing that they could face the death sentence and then spend years appealing the sentence despite knowing that was the penalty for the crime they committed. The death sentence doesn't seem to worry anyone until they fall prey to it, then they fight like hell to not be executed. The old saying "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" has pertinence here.
It's not really strange at all. People who commit crimes never think they'll be caught so the sentence isn't really a deterrent anyway.
 
There is of course a risk of being stabbed on the streets but for the majority of people, the risk is relatively low level.

That said, I certainly believe that police numbers are far too low and cuts to police budgets should be reversed and the numbers of officers should be significantly increased. That should be a priority.

There are however, some groups of people that can for various reasons be identified as being in a particular risk category. Those reasons can be historic or current and the value of an attack on some groups can generate specific attention such as significant publicity or revenge for perceived threats again of a historic or current nature.

This murder of a member of Parliament has certainly achieved a very public exposure in the media. Whether at this stage, that was the intention of the killer remains to be seen but it is on the front page of every newspaper as far as I’m aware.

We can very much identify therefore that MP’s are currently at high risk of further attacks by either individuals or groups. It’s been demonstrated that they are a relatively easily accessible high profile target.

The priority must be to implement resources to try to safeguard them while they are carrying out their elected duties. In the short term, I think that warrants giving them some police resources until urgent but more permanent measures are put in place.

2 MPs murdered and an attempted murder in the last 30 years doesn't seem to be that high a risk.

You would have mayors, councillors et al demanding their own police officer.
 
It's not really strange at all. People who commit crimes never think they'll be caught so the sentence isn't really a deterrent anyway.

However some people don't commit crimes because they think they will be caught and fear the punishment.
 
"The stark truth, of course, is that they have not abolished the death penalty at all. They have merely transferred it from the guilty to the innocent - and incidentally ensured that many more violent deaths occur.“ — George MacDonald Fraser

I'd add to those wise words and say that they have not abolished the death penalty. They have replaced it with a 'living death penalty'.

A hardcore of criminals is confined in prison until they die - securely warehoused if you will. These 'zombies' have no hope, no incentive or means to reform, and simply create festering sink holes of evil behind bars.

All this imposes a financial punishment on the taxpayer, potentially puts prison officers at risk, and diverts resources away from non-murderous prisoners who possibly could be retrained and salvaged for society.
 
However some people don't commit crimes because they think they will be caught and fear the punishment.

A much larger segment of society than either liberals or conservatives would like to admit.
 
Access will remain unfettered. Face to face access will be controlled.

Your solution wouldn’t work, nor is it permissible under a modern democracy.

A modern democracy where MPs sought to thwart the democratic choice of the electorate, where the highest judges demonstrated political bias, or where people in positions of power and influence colluded and encouraged foreign politicians to harm the UK?


When has that ever worked?

They are more in the public eye than their constituents, and many of those constituents didn’t vote for them, and a significant number of those constituents will blame them for aspects of their lives that they cannot control, hate them or have another violent disposition towards those MPs.

That is why they should be given better protection than their constituents. Because it will not limit access, but will save their lives.

No. If you isolate MPs from their electors then they cannot represent them. That act in itself will see the end of our system of democratic representation because it will lead to "behind closed doors democracy". That will cascade down across the whole of public life, which in turn will produce a society that none of us will recognise or want.
 
How enlightening to see former Met chief super, dal babu take time off from championing the cause of shamima begum to point out that security in mps' surgeries is 'remarkably relaxed'.
 

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
There is of course a risk of being stabbed on the streets but for the majority of people, the risk is relatively low level.

That said, I certainly believe that police numbers are far too low and cuts to police budgets should be reversed and the numbers of officers should be significantly increased. That should be a priority.

There are however, some groups of people that can for various reasons be identified as being in a particular risk category. Those reasons can be historic or current and the value of an attack on some groups can generate specific attention such as significant publicity or revenge for perceived threats again of a historic or current nature.

This murder of a member of Parliament has certainly achieved a very public exposure in the media. Whether at this stage, that was the intention of the killer remains to be seen but it is on the front page of every newspaper as far as I’m aware.

We can very much identify therefore that MP’s are currently at high risk of further attacks by either individuals or groups. It’s been demonstrated that they are a relatively easily accessible high profile target.

The priority must be to implement resources to try to safeguard them while they are carrying out their elected duties. In the short term, I think that warrants giving them some police resources until urgent but more permanent measures are put in place.
So this is now officially a terrorist incident.
How many other Terrorist related murders have taken place on general members of the public in the the five years since Jo Cox? In five years two MPs murdered which is two too many.
Here is the answer


  • 2016, 16 June: Murder of Jo Cox – Thomas Mair, a 52-year-old white nationalist, shot and stabbed the MP Jo Cox outside a surgery in Birstall, West Yorkshire, and severely wounded a passerby who came to her aid. The attack was treated as an act of terrorism,[46]and in sentencing Mair to life imprisonment the judge said "There is no doubt that this murder was done for the purpose of advancing a political, racial and ideological cause namely that of violent white supremacism and exclusive nationalism most associated with Nazism and its modern forms".[47]
  • 2017, 22 March: 2017 Westminster attack – Khalid Masood, a 52-year-old Islamist, drove a car into pedestrians on Westminster Bridge, killing four and injuring almost fifty. He ran into the grounds of the Palace of Westminster and fatally stabbed Keith Palmer (police officer), before being shot dead by police. The attack was treated as an act of terrorism motivated by Islamic extremism.[48][49][50][51]
  • 2017, 22 May: Manchester Arena bombing – An Islamist suicide bomber, 22-year-old Salman Abedi, blew himself up at Manchester Arena as people were leaving a concert, killing 22 and injuring 139. It became the deadliest terrorist attack in Britain since the 7/7 London bombings in 2005. Many of the victims were children or teenagers, the youngest being an eight-year-old girl.[52][53]
  • 2017, 3 June: 2017 London Bridge attack – Three Islamists drove a van into pedestrians on London bridge before stabbing people in and around pubs in nearby Borough Market. Eight people were killed and at least 48 wounded.[54][55][56] The attackers were shot dead by police eight minutes after the incident was reported. All three were wearing fake suicide bomb vests.
  • 2017, 19 June: Finsbury Park attack – Darren Osborne, a 47 year old British man, drove a van into Muslim worshippers near Finsbury Park Mosque, London. A man who had earlier collapsed and was receiving first aid died at the scene. The incident was investigated by counter-terrorism police as a terrorist attack.[57][58][59] On 23 June, Osborne was charged with terrorism-related murder and attempted murder.[60][61] In February 2018 at Woolwich Crown Court, he was found guilty on both counts[62] and was sentenced to life imprisonment.
  • 2017, 15 September: Parsons Green bombing – The London tube train was targeted and witnesses reported a flash and bang.[63]Thirty people were injured, mostly with flash burns and crush injuries, but there were no fatalities. The threat level was raised to its highest point of critical soon after.[64]
  • 2018, 14 August: 2018 Westminster car attack - A Ford Fiesta ran down pedestrians outside the palace of Westminster. The car then went on to crash into the security barrier, after aiming at two police officers.[65]
  • 2018, 31 December: Mahdi Mohamud, a Dutch national from a Somali family, stabbed three in a knife attack at Manchester Victoria station. Mohamud shouted "Allahu Akbar!" and "Long live the Caliphate!" during the attack. Despite suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, Mahomud was convicted of a terror offence and attempted murder of three people due to his possession of significant amounts of extremist material and the attack's extensive planning.
  • 2019, 29 November: 2019 London Bridge stabbing - On 29 November 2019, police were called to a stabbing near London Bridge, in Central London, England, at 1:58 pm. A statement said that one man was detained, and "a number of people" were injured. Two people were killed in the attack and three were left injured. The attacker, 28 year old Usman Khan, was shot dead by police and confirmed dead on the scene.[66][67]

2020s​

  • 2020, 9 January: Two inmates at Whitemoor prison in Cambridgeshire wearing realistic fake suicide vests, and carrying improvised bladed weapons, stabbed one prison officer several times causing serious injuries and harmed several others.
  • 2020, 2 February: 2020 Streatham stabbing - Sudesh Amman, wearing a fake suicide vest similar to the one used in the 2019 London Bridge stabbing, was shot dead by armed police after stabbing and injuring two people in Streatham, London Borough of Lambeth. One of the victims sustained life-threatening injuries.
  • 2020, 20 June: 2020 Reading stabbings - On 20 June 2020, Khairi Saadallah, shouting "Allahu Akbar", attacked two groups of people socialising in Forbury Gardens, a public park in the centre of Reading, killing 3 and injuring 3 others. On 11 January 2021, he was given a whole-life jail term. The sentencing judge said that it was a terrorist attack and that the purpose was to advance an extremist Islamic cause[68]
  • 2021, 15 October: Killing of David Amess - While meeting constituents at a surgery, Sir David Amess, MP for Southend West, was stabbed multiple times. He died of his injuries. Counter-terrorism police said the killing was a terrorist incident.[69]

That’s FORTY DEATHS, I didn’t bother with the number of injuries!​

And now I hear that these MPs want special protection. I just feel that all we need is a good Police Force and a much sterner immigration policy which will benefit EVERYONE!
 
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Disgraceful editorial from the Guardian today. Call me an ex-reader.

Can be summarised:

« The death of Sir David Amess, after allegedly being stabbed several times at his Essex constituency surgery on Friday, is shocking. »

Increasing polarisation etc blah blah…

« MPs endure personal abuse on social media, are sent needlessly aggressive emails and have to endure physical intimidation. Female MPs and those from ethnic minorities are disproportionately affected by the wave of toxicity. »

I’d call being brutally murdered « disproportionately affected » personally! Certainly worse than some nasty emails or tweets!

The Guardian view on Sir David Amess: a shocking political death | Editorial
Weasel words.
 
I think stopping the death penalty and seeing the murder rate steadily climb is a good indication that the former is partly responsible for the latter.
Possibly. Perhaps even very possibly.

However, it's not proof.
 
D

Deleted 100463

Guest
I'd add to those wise words and say that they have not abolished the death penalty. They have replaced it with a 'living death penalty'.

A hardcore of criminals is confined in prison until they die - securely warehoused if you will. These 'zombies' have no hope, no incentive or means to reform, and simply create festering sink holes of evil behind bars.

All this imposes a financial punishment on the taxpayer, potentially puts prison officers at risk, and diverts resources away from non-murderous prisoners who possibly could be retrained and salvaged for society.
Majority of murderers were known to their victims, with the murders happening under specific circumstances. Those ones don't tend to be big issues for safety of prison staff.

It is the relative minority of the murderers who killed for other reasons like gang killings, terrorism etc, who as usual take up a lot more time and cause more issues to prison staff.
 

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