Tory Leadership Round Four

Who goes through to the next round?

  • Gove

    Votes: 40 36.4%
  • Hunt

    Votes: 73 66.4%
  • Javid

    Votes: 7 6.4%
  • Johnson

    Votes: 107 97.3%

  • Total voters
    110
  • Poll closed .
And what is the timescale for this pipedream of yours?
Not my pipedream, I'm a Remainiac remember? I'd just rather not see the UK taking a massive economic hit just because someone thought it would sound good in their Party leadership campaign.

During the referendum campaign, Fox, Johnson, Farage et al stood up and insisted that this would be "the easiest trade deal in history", and that "we held all the cards". Now, there are two possible explanations as to why we haven't got a deal:
  • They were right - it's just that these incredibly easy deals were subverted by evil remainers / cunning EU types
  • They were wrong - it's a lot more complicated than they thought (see Raab + Dover, Fox + trade deals, a convenient forgetfulness that we had a land border with the EU covered by the GFA)
I'm suggesting the latter, and that however much you want a really simple solution that gives you everything you want, there isn't one. And that anyone who claims to have a simple answer, doesn't understand the problem as well as they think they do.

That belief doesn't need me to be "on drugs", or "a Quisling", or some kind of Guardian-reading social-justice fanatic who dreams of an EUSSR. I just happen to believe that this stuff is difficult, and that any politician who asks for votes while insisting that we "only have to choose me, do X or Y, and Britain will instantly gain an awesome deal with the EU and spring forward onto the world stage as an economic powerhouse" is either a liar or an incompetent.
 
Not my pipedream, I'm a Remainiac remember? I'd just rather not see the UK taking a massive economic hit just because someone thought it would sound good in their Party leadership campaign.

During the referendum campaign, Fox, Johnson, Farage et al stood up and insisted that this would be "the easiest trade deal in history", and that "we held all the cards". Now, there are two possible explanations as to why we haven't got a deal:
  • They were right - it's just that these incredibly easy deals were subverted by evil remainers / cunning EU types
  • They were wrong - it's a lot more complicated than they thought (see Raab + Dover, Fox + trade deals)
I'm suggesting the latter, and that however much you want a really simple solution, there isn't one. And that anyone who claims to have a simple answer, doesn't understand the problem as well as they think they do.

That belief doesn't need me to be "on drugs", or "a Quisling", or some kind of Guardian-reading social-justice fanatic who dreams of an EUSSR. I just happen to believe that this stuff is difficult, and that any politician who asks for votes while insisting that we "only have to choose me, do X or Y, and Britain will instantly gain an awesome deal with the EU and spring forward onto the world stage as an economic powerhouse" is either a liar or an incompetent.
By remaining in the EU, we'd be slipping further along the road to that EUSSR that you don't want to see.
 
By remaining in the EU, we'd be slipping further along the road to that EUSSR that you don't want to see.
Perhaps, but that's also irrelevant.

Which do you reckon is closer to the truth?
  • Brexit was and is dead easy, has been sabotaged by wreckers, but can still be rescued by The Right Man For The Job
  • Brexit is a bloody hard problem and there isn't an answer that will make everyone happy?
 
Perhaps, but that's also irrelevant.

Which do you reckon is closer to the truth?
  • Brexit was and is dead easy, has been sabotaged by wreckers, but can still be rescued by The Right Man For The Job
  • Brexit is a bloody hard problem and there isn't an answer that will make everyone happy?
Both are the correct answer. I initially was opposed to a no deal brexit because I believed that when the dust had settled, and the tears and snot had dried up, that the little boys and girls playing at being grown ups could have thrashed out a deal that was beneficial to both parties - and no I don't believe that the WA was any sort of worthwhile mutual agreement before you say it.
However, the behaviour and attitude of the EU mafia, and their remain supporters since the vote in 2016, has convinced me that the only way out is now a no deal brexit.
I understand that there may be consequences for this but I believe that it is a risk worth taking.
My French partner, my youngest daughter, and my own mother are strongly opposed to brexit. Whereas my father, eldest daughter and myself are obviously in favour.
Friend wise; some are for, some are against, some don't care either way.
 

Auld-Yin

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Not my pipedream, I'm a Remainiac remember? I'd just rather not see the UK taking a massive economic hit just because someone thought it would sound good in their Party leadership campaign.

During the referendum campaign, Fox, Johnson, Farage et al stood up and insisted that this would be "the easiest trade deal in history", and that "we held all the cards". Now, there are two possible explanations as to why we haven't got a deal:
  • They were right - it's just that these incredibly easy deals were subverted by evil remainers / cunning EU types
  • They were wrong - it's a lot more complicated than they thought (see Raab + Dover, Fox + trade deals, a convenient forgetfulness that we had a land border with the EU covered by the GFA)
I'm suggesting the latter, and that however much you want a really simple solution that gives you everything you want, there isn't one. And that anyone who claims to have a simple answer, doesn't understand the problem as well as they think they do.

That belief doesn't need me to be "on drugs", or "a Quisling", or some kind of Guardian-reading social-justice fanatic who dreams of an EUSSR. I just happen to believe that this stuff is difficult, and that any politician who asks for votes while insisting that we "only have to choose me, do X or Y, and Britain will instantly gain an awesome deal with the EU and spring forward onto the world stage as an economic powerhouse" is either a liar or an incompetent.
Trouble is there are no benefits for the UK remaining in the EU. All, and I mean all, the benefits of remaining fall to the EU and Brussels.

Do you not find it sinister and a touch scary that a country wishing to leave the EU and go its own way is blocked from doing so?

To say that ever closer Union is irrelevant demonstrates that you have not thought this through very well, if at all.
 

Fang_Farrier

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What I have found informative about this whole debate is how polarising it is.
I am not just a member of this forum but others with different themes.
It is interesting how each has become an echo chamber.

Here it's very obviously pro no deal, pro Boris with only a few dissenters.

I have seen that elsewhere but also seen the exact opposite occur.

It seems whoever gets the first lot of posts in then attracts their own supporters enough masse and as opposition to their view point crops up, it is dealt with mob handed.

And as I said, this is happening in both directions.
 
Trouble is there are no benefits for the UK remaining in the EU. All, and I mean all, the benefits of remaining fall to the EU and Brussels.

Do you not find it sinister and a touch scary that a country wishing to leave the EU and go its own way is blocked from doing so?

To say that ever closer Union is irrelevant demonstrates that you have not thought this through very well, if at all.
Interestingly, you're both ignoring my question, and falling back on justifying your support for Brexit. Please note that I'm not arguing that we should remain - I've accepted that we're leaving. I'm not asking about the "why", but about the "how".

What I am asking (again) is which you think is closer to the reality of leaving. You know, the important bit of the whole deal:
  • Brexit was always, and is now, dead easy; has been sabotaged by wreckers; but will immediately be rescued by The Right Man For The Job and his simple solution
  • Brexit was always, and is now, a bloody hard problem; and there isn't an answer that will make everyone happy?
 

Joker62

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Interestingly, you're both ignoring my question, and falling back on justifying your support for Brexit. Please note that I'm not arguing that we should remain - I've accepted that we're leaving. I'm not asking about the "why", but about the "how".

What I am asking (again) is which you think is closer to the reality of leaving. You know, the important bit of the whole deal:
  • Brexit was always, and is now, dead easy; has been sabotaged by wreckers; but will immediately be rescued by The Right Man For The Job and his simple solution
  • Brexit was always, and is now, a bloody hard problem; and there isn't an answer that will make everyone happy?
How about "Brexit could've been dead easy, but it wouldn't have suited everyone. It has been sabotaged by May and her bunch of lickspittles who just happened to be Remainers in the whole, a bit of listening to Leavers might have gone a long way to sorting it out.
 

Auld-Yin

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Interestingly, you're both ignoring my question, and falling back on justifying your support for Brexit. Please note that I'm not arguing that we should remain - I've accepted that we're leaving. I'm not asking about the "why", but about the "how".

What I am asking (again) is which you think is closer to the reality of leaving. You know, the important bit of the whole deal:
  • Brexit was always, and is now, dead easy; has been sabotaged by wreckers; but will immediately be rescued by The Right Man For The Job and his simple solution
  • Brexit was always, and is now, a bloody hard problem; and there isn't an answer that will make everyone happy?
They are both correct depending on the circumstances of the day.

Now asking hypothetical questions is the tactic used by most remainers on this site. You say you accept brexit is happening but at no stage are you getting behind it. This has been the bugbear of the whole process leading to idiots presenting the hypothetical questions you have.

All it will take is the people who say brexit is happening to get together and actually make it happen.
 
Now asking hypothetical questions is the tactic used by most remainers on this site.
But it isn't a hypothetical question. Like it or not, the EU isn't going to suddenly roll over and allow free trade without free movement. The deal we have now, is pretty much it as far as they're concerned - it's what we asked for, it's what Davis and Raab spent two years negotiating.

Brexit is currently stalled. The terms that were demanded by PM May (immigration control, no Customs Union) ran up against the need to maintain the GFA while having a land border with the EU. A withdrawal agreement was negotiated that took account of this. The House of Commons has proven that it won't accept "No Deal" as the answer; that it won't accept the Withdrawal Agreement as the answer; and that it won't accept revoking Article 50 as the answer.

You say you accept brexit is happening but at no stage are you getting behind it. This has been the bugbear of the whole process leading to idiots presenting the hypothetical questions you have.

All it will take is the people who say brexit is happening to get together and actually make it happen.
Errrr.... should I shout "Huzzah!", stop with those negative vibes, and declare that a positive attitude will make everything better? "Stop having your own opinion, just do what Mark Francois says, and everything will be fine"? Brexit isn't failing because of negativity, it's stalled because there are fundamental problems with achieving all of the promises made for it.

People have been trying to "make it happen", it just happens to be bloody complicated. Insisting that stuff is "just details" and pretending otherwise is what lets Lieutenant-Colonels have their "CO's Really Good Idea" moment; something that sounds good in principle, but falls apart once you start looking closely at the implementation. You know, like the Poll Tax.

So if you find yourself asserting that people shouldn't discuss the flaws in what's going on (or rather, what's not going on), you might want to consider your motives for doing so. About half the population thinks that you (and the last two candidates for the Conservative leadership) are insisting that there is nothing wrong with the Emperor's New Clothes.
 
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What I have found informative about this whole debate is how polarising it is.
I am not just a member of this forum but others with different themes.
It is interesting how each has become an echo chamber.

Here it's very obviously pro no deal, pro Boris with only a few dissenters.

I have seen that elsewhere but also seen the exact opposite occur.

It seems whoever gets the first lot of posts in then attracts their own supporters enough masse and as opposition to their view point crops up, it is dealt with mob handed.

And as I said, this is happening in both directions.
I don't think that anyone but the most pessimistic or most conspiracy theory minded who voted Leave in 2016 could have imagined the mess that we are currently in. Remainers told us the world would end if we voted Leave (which it hasn't). Leavers said that they would get the grown ups to do a good deal. No one voted no deal as such, but if we knew how bad the eventual surrender document would be I suspect that had the government said "we're leaving the EU and you can vote on how we leave, with no option to remain as we are" then no deal would win hands down over the WA.

As for being pro Boris, then I personally can think of few people less suited to being PM. The late Ross Perot famously refused to employ men with beards, who wore shirts that weren't white, and adulterers. The latter on the basis that if your wife can't trust you, how can I? However the Conservative Party is being given a choice of just two possible leaders, a Remainer and a nominal Leaver. Unfortunately the nominal Leaver is Boris.

So I don't think that anyone started off as pro-no deal and pro-Boris. Is just how things have worked out.
 
Do you not find it sinister and a touch scary that a country wishing to leave the EU and go its own way is blocked from doing so?
We’re not being blocked. We can flounce out anytime we like, but no one has the balls to do it and risk their ‘legacy’ being tarnished in the event it doesn’t turn out to be a golden future for us all.
 

Auld-Yin

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But it isn't a hypothetical question. Like it or not, the EU isn't going to suddenly roll over and allow free trade without free movement. The deal we have now, is pretty much it as far as they're concerned - it's what we asked for, it's what Davis and Raab spent two years negotiating.

Brexit is currently stalled. The terms that were demanded by PM May (immigration control, no Customs Union) ran up against the need to maintain the GFA while having a land border with the EU. A withdrawal agreement was negotiated that took account of this. The House of Commons has proven that it won't accept "No Deal" as the answer; that it won't accept the Withdrawal Agreement as the answer; and that it won't accept revoking Article 50 as the answer.



Errrr.... should I shout "Huzzah!", stop with those negative vibes, and declare that a positive attitude will make everything better? "Stop having your own opinion, just do what Mark Francois says, and everything will be fine"? Brexit isn't failing because of negativity, it's stalled because there are fundamental problems with achieving all of the promises made for it.

People have been trying to "make it happen", it just happens to be bloody complicated. Insisting that stuff is "just details" and pretending otherwise is what lets Lieutenant-Colonels have their "CO's Really Good Idea" moment; something that sounds good in principle, but falls apart once you start looking closely at the implementation. You know, like the Poll Tax.

So if you find yourself asserting that people shouldn't discuss the flaws in what's going on (or rather, what's not going on), you might want to consider your motives for doing so. About half the population thinks that you (and the last two candidates for the Conservative leadership) are insisting that there is nothing wrong with the Emperor's New Clothes.
Less than half - that is what is known as losing. In fact a huge lot less than half, just 300 or so egos in the Palace of Westminster. MPs took a democratic decision and set about ignoring it. That came back and bit them hard, twice, on the bum in both local and EU elections and still you and your like are bleating about brexit. You lost, get over it.

I hope BoJo gets in and retains the backbone to get this done. No doubt people with your POV will spend a lot of time, energy, money and column inches trying to continue the block in any form of brexit.

I don't believe you when you say you have accepted we are leaving - in fact I believe you are lying through your teeth and hoping, working and praying for brexit to fail.

"fundamental problems with achieving all of the promises made for it.". You are not giving a chance for just one of the promises to come to fruition. Nobody expected every promise to come through but did expect the premise of Brexit to happen!

You are not just rebelling against the "CO's bright idea" you are rebelling against the whole thing. You are coming across as the sort of officer that would leak General Cowan's knife and fork email and the email about pink wafers for the CO. I truly hope you have a little loyalty for your current employer, as you don't for this country's democracy!

You are a lot worse than Baggie, Higgs bosun etc as up to this you have shown yourself to be fairly intelligent and stable but now that your side lost the vote and you can't and won't accept it.
 
I don't believe you when you say you have accepted we are leaving - in fact I believe you are lying through your teeth and hoping, working and praying for brexit to fail.
Wrong, I'm afraid. I may think it's a mistake, but the referendum result was to leave the EU - I accept that. I can hardly demand a rerun of the referendum, because that would make me a hypocrite over the whole Scottish independence debate. It's called democracy, we all have to accept we won't get our way from time to time. I don't expect the decision to be reversed (I won't cry if it is, mind you), I'm just asking for it to not be a needless and avoidable screwup, driven by a desire to have more appeal to Conservative Party members than "the other bloke".

You are a lot worse than Baggie, Higgs bosun etc as up to this you have shown yourself to be fairly intelligent and stable but now that your side lost the vote and you can't and won't accept it.
Most of your post is a criticism of me or my perceived beliefs, and surprisingly little is to do with proposing a solution to the stalemate - why do you keep telling me that "I lost", when I acknowledge it all the time?

I can see why people voted to Leave; I just happened to make a different decision in the voting booth. Plenty of honourable people look at the EU in balance, and believe we're better off outside. Fine. The question, as ever, is "how far outside the EU"?
  • Soft: There are plenty who voted Remain because they were happy with the various UK opt-outs, and willing to trade off some autonomy against economic benefit. They accept the referendum result, prefer softer Brexits, might accept the WA, won't accept "no deal".
  • Centre: There are plenty who voted Leave because they didn't trust the strength of the UK opt-outs, or because they felt on balance that the loss of autonomy wasn't worth the cost - but rather liked the economic benefits. They are happy with any Brexit, negotiated the WA, might accept "no deal"
  • Hard: There are some who voted Leave because they felt that Britain can genuinely thrive like Singapore, freed from any dependence on the EU, and utterly autonomous. They prefer harder Brexits, won't accept the WA, will accept "no deal".
No "Leave" faction has the votes to get their view through Parliament, without cooperating with another - they each appear to hold about quarter of the Houses of Parliament. Perhaps they should negotiate with each other, and compromise, rather than demanding that only their solution has merit, everything else is betrayal, any opposition is treachery?

The vital negotiation isn't with Brussels, it never was. The vital negotiations are inside Westminster, and I suspect that is where May screwed up most. If she'd gone "cross-party" on sorting out the principles on which we would leave, she might have succeeded. Trade off workers' protection against immigration controls? Who knows, we never will.

It will be interesting in thirty years, to see the Cabinet Papers that reveal how the decisions were made to pick the various red lines of the UK negotiating position. Did May railroad Davis, Fox, and Johnson - or did they all agree on the approach to be taken?
 

Auld-Yin

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There were no real negotiations. The EU drew up a document and handed it to May and basically told her to get on with it. Indeed, when the Brexit Secretary produced the deal document he and his department had been working on May binned it and produced hers from under the table. Negotiation - I don't think so!

The Cabinet papers may not reveal much as it appears much of Mrs May's work was done out with the Cabinet.
 

Auld-Yin

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The minister who was careless enough to have his notes photographed after a November 2016 Cabinet meeting on the subject, would tend to suggest otherwise?

"Have Cake and eat it"? (link)

Looking at the notes following the C&E bit seems to make it look like a comment on the EU stance rather than UK one. The comments in that box seem to be about the EU team.

Still you carry in with your pipedream.
 
The deal we have now, is pretty much it as far as they're concerned - it's what we asked for, it's what Davis and Raab spent two years negotiating.
The deal we have/had wasn't the work of Raab or Davies. It was a May/Robbins stitch up with the two former cabinet members playing chumps

Re-read their resignation letters to see how much hand they had in the 'deal'
 
@Gravelbelly , you do know that there's whole section of Arrse devoted to pro / anti Brexit where you can restate your chosen position ad nauseam without irritating, boring or preventing the dialogue of everyone else, don't you?

Much as the Tory leadership battle is bound up in Brexit, that doesn't mean I or anyone else wants to rehash in/out with you or have to scroll past your marathon posts on this thread. Stick to the issue of the leadership please, and for God's sake exercise your right to brevity.
 
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Getting out of the Eu and making brexit work. One of the Eu bods advised us ‘not to waste the time’, given to us, having failed to leave on March 29th.

What precisely has been done to advance the brexit cause in the lat three months and what do you see Johnson doing in the next three to carry brexit forward?


Just asking like..........
Wasting time? What have we been doing? We have been making lists...




We haven't gone away you know.
 
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