Torture

#2
I think of them as two of the most morally admirable people I've met: proof, indeed, that although anyone can become a torturer, nobody has to.
Yet they did. Would he not be better off reserving his admiration for people who refused?
 
#3
on the same subject..................

how can an actor seriously have believed waterboarding was not torture?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...jected-to-real-waterboarding-for-TV-show.html
Spooks actor subjected to real waterboarding for TV show
BBC television show Spooks is to air scenes of an actor genuinely being waterboarded "to ensure authenticity".

By Chris Irvine
Last Updated: 7:01AM GMT 27 Oct 2008

The popular spy series, which follows a team of MI5 agents, will show actor Richard Armitage endure the form of torture that simulates drowning.

Waterboarding involves the subject being placed on their backs and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages while they have a cloth blocking their airways.

Armitage, who has also starred as Sir Guy of Gisborne in the BBC's Robin Hood, plays Lucas North, a British agent who has spent eight years in a Russian prison, and is released on a prisoner exchange deal.

He said he agreed to the scene because he initially believed the FSB, the Russian intelligence service, and the CIA, that it was "a humane way of extracting information without hurting people".

Following his experience, however, he said he had changed his mind.

He explained: "You start to breathe in and out, but when the water just fills everywhere up it just hits you. It changed my opinion completely."

He told The Times: "I realised that it really is a form of torture that shouldn't be used. I only lasted five to 10 seconds, and the sound of my voice crying out to stop isn't me acting. The psychological damage of doing that to someone for even a minute would be indescribable."

The BBC may face a raft of complaints however and could ask Ofcom, the broadcasting watchdog, to study the footage.

The Broadcasting Code forbids the transmission of material that "glamorises violent, dangerous, or seriously antisocial behaviour and is likely to encourage others to copy such behaviour".

A spokesman for Kudos said: "We consulted our health-and-safety adviser at length for this sequence and strictly adhered to his advice. On the day itself the adviser was present, as well as a medic."

Spooks returns for its seventh series on BBC One on Tuesday.
 
#4
I would think a realistic depiction of torture would definitely not 'glamorise' it. Quite the opposite.

The public response to it would be quite instructive, too, in an objective fashion.
 
#5
How did they get this past health and safety? I am not allowed to change the clock on the wall in my office!

I agree this does not glamorise torture, but let’s face it, its just free publicity for the BBC. (Ill be watching Dead Set instead anyway :p)
 
#6
smartascarrots said:
I think of them as two of the most morally admirable people I've met: proof, indeed, that although anyone can become a torturer, nobody has to.
Yet they did. Would he not be better off reserving his admiration for people who refused?
Quite.
As an indication of how socially dysfunctional/borderline sociopathic these two are, they returned to the States and set up home together.
Two straight 30 somethings deciding to live together following their shared experience as torturers?
I'm glad they're not my neighbours.
 
#7
You dont have to be clever to be an actor :D .Though how many of us could have been talked into having water boarding demonstrated on ourselves ?
I Think a few calls of chicken would get a vast majority of us half drowned :oops: .
 
#9
Depressing but not in the least surprising:

"As a method of getting intelligence it was useless. And besides, the aim of interrogations shifted subtly. "A lot of what we ended up doing was trying to gather confessions, not intelligence. I think that the commanders wanted to show that they were doing a good job and were picking up guilty people. But in fact we were just rounding up whoever was on the street. They just wanted us to force people to confess so that they could brief their commanders and say that they had captured all the terrorists."
 
#11
woody said:
You dont have to be clever to be an actor :D .Though how many of us could have been talked into having water boarding demonstrated on ourselves ?
I Think a few calls of chicken would get a vast majority of us half drowned :oops: .
Never mind being called chicken, I'd be interested to try it just to see what the fuss is about. Its doubtless horrendous, but it would be an interesting experience.
 
#12
Well we do experiment with white noise, stress positions, sleep deprivation etc. But I'm forked if I'm experimenting with this.

Try laying in the bath with a wet face cloth over your grid and then pour water over your face and try and breath, bollox to that! Not nice, no thanks, keep it.
 
#13
What gets me is that the Yanks seem incapable of learning lessons from history.
They lost the war in Vietnam because the majority of the population was against them. Why? Because they went in heavy handed, they showed scant regard for innocent civilian casualties, they used torture as an intelligence gathering tool and they used a scorched earth policy on enemy villages. It seems their idea of hearts and minds is not to kill everyone and to give out a few Hershey bars and bottles of coke.
By contrast in Malaya the British Army used to give the villagers the confidence to refuse Communist insurgents and the Army protected villagers and cared for them. Consequently the flow of valuable intelligence was virtually non-stop and the majority of the population saw the British as a benign protecting force there for their safety. The communists seeing they couldn't incite the population to revolution gave up.
 
#14
Blogg said:
Depressing but not in the least surprising:

"As a method of getting intelligence it was useless. And besides, the aim of interrogations shifted subtly. "A lot of what we ended up doing was trying to gather confessions, not intelligence. I think that the commanders wanted to show that they were doing a good job and were picking up guilty people. But in fact we were just rounding up whoever was on the street. They just wanted us to force people to confess so that they could brief their commanders and say that they had captured all the terrorists."
I was just about to post that. For a bit of a comparison i read an article that Russia was doing just that at the high conflict in Chechnya, America the bastion of democracy and defender of the weak resorting to evil commie tactics, shock horror.
 
#15
The Sgt Major from the Regt who occasionally lived in our mess in Brunei was always most adamant that you must never mistreat any captives.
Be firm and fair, treat any injuries and they will answer simple ( Non Military) questions and then start talking. Once they relax and Talk you can work round to what you want to talk about.
john
 
#16
jonwilly said:
The Sgt Major from the Regt who occasionally lived in our mess in Brunei was always most adamant that you must never mistreat any captives.
Be firm and fair, treat any injuries and they will answer simple ( Non Military) questions and then start talking. Once they relax and Talk you can work round to what you want to talk about.
john
It doesn't really require any in depth knowledge of psychology, either - just the ability to ask yourself "How would I react if it were done to me?" and answer honestly.

The subject is either going to bite their tongue out of spite or more likely just say what he thinks the torturer wants to hear to get them to stop. If it's a name, that bloke gets tortured until he does likewise and hey! presto!, there's corroboration. Which of course proves that torture works. :roll:
 
#18
Woody: "You dont have to be clever to be an actor .Though how many of us could have been talked into having water boarding demonstrated on ourselves ?
I Think a few calls of chicken would get a vast majority of us half drowned."

Precisley what happened to me at a Barbeque this summer. It came up in discussion and -after a few Magners- I opined that it didnt seem that cruel as it was just 'fecking water' so, a chorus of "Go on, do it or you're gay" started up which led me to being waterboarded on a deckchair. It only lasted about 6 seconds but was a very terrifying experience. The panic sets in the second you try to breathe.

Not to be recommended. Even at rugby initiation ceremonies.

To be frank, I would have signed a statement claiming to be Jack the Ripper and Lord Lucan if it would have meant that such a technique would not be used again.
 
#19
Carrots
I do not doubt that Torture works.
I can't remember the name of the CIA chief in Beirut who was skinned alive by the Islamic terrorists who caught him way back in the 70's, he talked. I understand all was Videoed and he told all he knew.
I don't doubt that if it was the life of my parents, now deceased, I too would have done something drastic to obtain information that would have saved them.
However Torture is wrong.
I will change my opinion when the US permits waterbording of ALL suspects of any crime or misdemeanor as normal procedure.
john
 
#20
jonwilly said:
Carrots

I don't doubt that if it was the life of my parents, now deceased, I too would have done something drastic to obtain information that would have saved them.
and the courts would grant you, as a civilian, mitigating circumstances - but this does not apply to states.
 
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