Torture - revisited

#3
tomahawk6 said:
The PBS documentary was very short on facts/evidence but long on speculation and hearsay.

http://froggyruminations.blogspot.com/
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Accuses the one decent TV news outlet left in the United States of relying speculation and hearsay and then makes his point by showing us a tin-foil hat Blog by way of evidence!!!!

PBS is the very LAST place on American TV that does decent investigative journalism. They have a pop at both left and right, but obviously, since they dare question the Shaved Chimp, they are heathen communists.



Two words: FACT CHECK.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
#4
What gets on my wick is the predictable nature of much of the discussion ... "it's wrong" ... "but they do it" ... "it's a war" ... "it's not really torture" etc ad nauseam. Both sides parade around getting all righteously indignant without thinking about the full implications.

To me the question is will it help us win ? Does the int gained (int, not bloody intel, they make processors) outweigh the adverse effects ? Personally, I suspect not. This war is unlike many we've seen before in that victory cannot be achieved by killing people and blowing stuff up. If the methods we use to deal with insurgents generate them at a faster rate than we kill them then we are doomed. So how does our use of torture generate enemies ?

One of the main arguments OBL and AQ use to recruit followers is to point at the moral bankruptcy of the West. Sure, they talk a good fight about human rights and freedom but when it comes right down to it if you're foreign you get Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, Fallujah, state sanctioned torture and burning bodies in Afghanistan. AQ get to occupy the moral high ground as they do exactly what they say they will do. We don't. Just think of the effect of that sort of world view on presently uncommitted people.

And the linguistic gymnastics being used to justify some treatment as interrogation and not torture are equally harmful - to the average member of the population we wish to prevent joining our enemies this reeks of hypocrisy. If you did it to them they'd think it was torture, case closed.

So how many bad guys has using torture put away ? How much info did we get that we wouldn't have got using more traditional interrogation methods ? Precious little I'd bet.
 
#5
crabtastic said:
tomahawk6 said:
The PBS documentary was very short on facts/evidence but long on speculation and hearsay.

http://froggyruminations.blogspot.com/
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Accuses the one decent TV news outlet left in the United States of relying speculation and hearsay and then makes his point by showing us a tin-foil hat Blog by way of evidence!!!!

PBS is the very LAST place on American TV that does decent investigative journalism. They have a pop at both left and right, but obviously, since they dare question the Shaved Chimp, they are heathen communists.



Two words: FACT CHECK.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
PBS has a known left wing agenda and just like you crab facts are unimportant.
 
#6
tomahawk6 said:
crabtastic said:
tomahawk6 said:
The PBS documentary was very short on facts/evidence but long on speculation and hearsay.

http://froggyruminations.blogspot.com/
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Accuses the one decent TV news outlet left in the United States of relying speculation and hearsay and then makes his point by showing us a tin-foil hat Blog by way of evidence!!!!

PBS is the very LAST place on American TV that does decent investigative journalism. They have a pop at both left and right, but obviously, since they dare question the Shaved Chimp, they are heathen communists.



Two words: FACT CHECK.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
PBS has a known left wing agenda and just like you crab facts are unimportant.
Yes because we know everyone on the left is bad and all on the right are good.Frontline is a good show.At least better than anything FOX has to offer.
Get real dude,it is because of people like you that Americans are made fun of.Unable to accept when it is staring you square in the face.You are so engrosed in your part poltics that you can take a step back and think OBJECTIVELY.
 
#7
tomahawk6 said:
crabtastic said:
tomahawk6 said:
The PBS documentary was very short on facts/evidence but long on speculation and hearsay.

http://froggyruminations.blogspot.com/
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Accuses the one decent TV news outlet left in the United States of relying speculation and hearsay and then makes his point by showing us a tin-foil hat Blog by way of evidence!!!!

PBS is the very LAST place on American TV that does decent investigative journalism. They have a pop at both left and right, but obviously, since they dare question the Shaved Chimp, they are heathen communists.


Two words: FACT CHECK.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
PBS has a known left wing agenda and just like you crab facts are unimportant.
That sums you up pretty well. I don't suppose you even bothered to watch the show?
 
#9
I have to agree with the common view here - the American handling of their prisoners has generated massive unrest outside of Iraq, and, almost certainly, acted as a recruiting Sgt within Iraq. It most certainly damaged our credibility. (Do you really think Middle Eastern media agencies gave as much time/print space to that tw"ts resignation as to his papers fictious headlines?)

We needed Abu Ghraib like a hole in the head - it damaged the perception of US/UK as a benevolent force at a critical stage. We have suffered for it ever since.

And we've never recovered the high ground either.......I wonder why so many Iraqis are against us now? (According to a Sunday Telegraph report).

I did actually support the invasion of Iraq (and I went, and have been back).....but I have to say, given what I read in the papers, I am not so sure anymore. If they don't want us there, then why should we hang around? If that is what the population do think, then staying can only prolong the harm to us and slow their development down - right?

Alternate answers????
 
#11
I'm sorry Tom , but DoD need to sack whatever Media critters they are using, and get some more aggressive ones in.

We can all use the excuse "Oh the media hate good works by the Military" What they actually hate, is the spin put on them, by the political handlers.

I previously made reference to the early CENTMIL briefings in 2003/2004 and the amazingly good "folksy" stories , with little or no spin. Stories that came straight from the horses mouth, and made damn good and uplifting reading.

Maybe that stopped, as more and more stories started to appear like "We could do so much good here, if the goddamn CPA wasn't in the way" etc etc . That even appeared on the documentary about Thunder Battalion shown here , where tough Sgts and SSGT's were talking about "people sat in air conditioned offices not giving us what we need to make the difference"

The fact is , pictures of bodies and burning cars make more of an immediate impact than "PFC John Doe 19 , tarmaced this basketball court under his own intiative."

It would make good reading, if it was presented in a bald , unspun light.

The news covered the petrol and other shortages in Basra last year, and the massive queues. Did it cover the efforts of people behind the scenes, including some Arrse posters, to get the fuel and generators in? Did it cover the fights some people here were having with the CPA to get things moving? No. Because people were more concerned with the image of certain parts of the CPA, rather than the absolute dynamite work being done by the Army, and SOME CPA officials to get things moving.

So good TV , showing people working selflessly for the Iraqi peoples, canned to spare the blushes further up the chain.

I made the point before during Fallujah , as to what I felt should have been done media wise. I was pleased as hell to see that before they went into Ramadi, there was a refugee village set up. the problem was , you had a rah-rah talking head presenting it , not groups of gleeful Iraqis thanking those that had actually done it.

We're losing the media war. One of the reasons we're losing it, is even the good news looks staged. Against a background of 3 years in, intermittent power and water still, and certain companies making Billions , and we're really not that further forward as far as the Iraqi people are concerned.
 
#12
One aspect of our dismal failure in the info ops arena is our complete and utter failure to understand that the media act like ... well, the media. They are (like it or loathe it) completely predictable in their responses. Yet again and again I hear the military whining about their behaviour as if it was something new or unpredictable. It isn't. If they were 3 Shock Army we'd have no problem understanding their behaviour - so why are a bunch of journos so difficult ?
 
#13
tomahawk6 said:
Its true that there has been negative publicity. But the negative publicity by the insurgency has had a more direct impact on the vast majority of Iraqi's. The US and our allies are doing alot of civic action programs that go unnoticed by the world media but is very much appreciated by the folks in the villages.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/iraq/rebuilding.html
But you don't accept that this negative publicity has a role in the creation of terrorists? That's right isn't it? At least that was the impression I got from the other thread on torture ( http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/p=407363.html#407363 ). There you said 'Muslim's become terrorists for religious reason's. Until their religion forsakes violence this threat will not abate.'

By the way I do hate the way these debates generally end up as T6 vrs. 'the rest' so thanks for being willing to debate...

Tricam
 
#14
Correct Tricam, I do not believe these abuse cases create more terrorists. Rather the extremist islamic schools/mosques are the source
of more terrorists than anything we can do - short of something dumb like nuking an arab country thereby killing alot of innocent civilians.
 
#15
Grand, that's fine T6... I disagree but I understand your point of view.

Incidentally, what is the motivation for the coalition to perform civic action programs? Is it:
1) to stay on right side of the population and thereby gain more intelligence, ostracise terrorists and prevent the generation of more terrorists
2) merely the fact that while the coalition is no longer the 'governing power' we kinda are because the Iraqi government are only just now getting to their feet.

Or perhaps a mixture of both? or something else as well?

Tricam.
 
#16
My perception is that suicide bombers and terrorist fighters become such through parental or peer pressure rather than anything else. Their life is less valued by them than ours is by us and they more readily sacrifice themselves than we might. Media etc. has some responsibility but the terrorist is so wound up with rage that he is likely to fly off the handle even on the basis of slightest rumour of some slight to his religion - Koran down the loos for example.
 
#17
tricam said:
Grand, that's fine T6... I disagree but I understand your point of view.

Incidentally, what is the motivation for the coalition to perform civic action programs? Is it:
1) to stay on right side of the population and thereby gain more intelligence, ostracise terrorists and prevent the generation of more terrorists
2) merely the fact that while the coalition is no longer the 'governing power' we kinda are because the Iraqi government are only just now getting to their feet.

Or perhaps a mixture of both? or something else as well?

Tricam.
Civic action programs help to create jobs and improve life for local residents. The byproduct is a measure of goodwill from the populace.
This same program is underway in Afghanistan.
 
#18
Ok... I agree civic programs result in a measure of goodwill. Following on from this I reckon the goodwill helps with gaining intelligence, ostracising terrorists within the community and aiding the prevention of the generation of new terrorists (I'm sure my sentence structure is shite here). So if performing positive actions can help win the war on terror, isn't it possible that negative actions (such as torture or the use of unpleasant practices) could hinder the war on terror. I suppose I was trying to convince you of my argument in a roundabout away.


ORC - I'd agree with your perception that parental/peer pressure can sometimes create suicide bombers. But what makes a suicide bomber's parents/peers hate the West? Is part of it the perception on their part, rightly or wrongly, that the West is the great Satan attacking Muslims. If this is the case then does the use of torture aid the recuitment of terrorists? - yes, I'd argue.

Tricam.
 
#19
Anybody catch the Ubiquitous Mr Tim Collins on Radio 4 "Today" prog, last week, opining on torture? Interested to hear impressions of others who did.
 
#20
tricam said:
ORC - I'd agree with your perception that parental/peer pressure can sometimes create suicide bombers. But what makes a suicide bomber's parents/peers hate the West? Is part of it the perception on their part, rightly or wrongly, that the West is the great Satan attacking Muslims. If this is the case then does the use of torture aid the recuitment of terrorists? - yes, I'd argue.Tricam.
The root of things - IMHO - is the imam obsessed with furthering the Islamic World concept. He does a fire and brimstone presentation and this has been going on for a long while - USA was friend of the Zionists approach. Performing clerics with their heaven and hell lessons are attractive - think Paisley versus a country vicar or the one eyed one handed guy now in Lebanon. Is it just coincidence that there is a lot of trouble right after their Friday prayers? The way in which Muslims seem to react to any perceived insult is another factor. One slight incident - real or rumoured - gets them onto the streets shouting for death to infidels. They
seem to live in a permanent state of high adrenaline and raised blood pressure.
 

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