Tories would give military key role in rebuilding Afghan...

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#21
4(T) said:
msr said:
The trouble with viewing CIMIC through an RE perspective is that you just end up building stuff...
Thats why our new "Corps" can contain not only engineers, but all the other professions represented within parts of the TA - businessmen, doctors, academics, linguists, teachers, bankers, health workers, civil servants - even a few MPs.....

With the advantage of a common management structure (military) you could deliver - say - a mentoring structure covering almost every aspect of the administration of a small country. Your civilian military structure provides on the one hand an interface to civvie organisations, and on the other seamless integration with military and security formations.
Careful 4(T) you're beginning to sound sensible, you know there is no place for sensible and rational thinking around here. Stop it :D
 
#22
4(T) said:
Dr_Evil said:
msr said:
Details of how the force would be configured had still to be decided, although Tory officials envisaged a role for the Territorial Army, calling on the skills of its builders, engineers and lawyers without the need to give them the extra security that civilian aid workers require.
But ... but ... where are all these builders, engineers and lawyers going to come from?

Danny_Dravot said:
yeah i heard about these mythical types too, and with the exception of a few i met from 21 sas most have not been. the majority have either been students, on the dole or other 'normal' jobs...
tedbun said:
Having being deployed with stabs, it amazes me that he had a job in the first place as most are only signing up as they would be unemployable anywhere else.
Osborne, Hague, General Sir Richard Dannatt: get with Danny and Ted. They know the real score.
Yeah, right....

CVHQ RA/RE(or whatever its called these day) have about 200-300 professionally under-utilised (as in their military job does not draw on their civilian professional skill set) individuals.

If a proper worthwhile "Corps" were to be formed that actually used and enhanced the skills of its civilian-military personnel, then it'd soon attract plenty of the necessary talent, and would evolve the types of terms of service that would allow a better fit with civilian careers and employment. E.g. sabbatical or short-contract detachment to "the Corps" might be viewed as a professional enhancement.
Bah, 4(T). We did this idea to death in October. Then the Tories nicked it.

Just wanted to have some fun at the expense of the Danny, Ted and other members of the window-tasting fraternity.
 
#23
Why shouldn't we be doing this? This is bread-and-butter COIN warfare. Incidentally, we've been doing more of that than actual warfighting of late. Arguably, since the Second World War that has been our primary engaged activity, yet the Army is still geared for fighting the Russian hordes.
Time for a change me thinks....
 
#24
Remember - Cameron said, so it was probably an idea of the week. He's probably got a new idea now or done a u turn on it.

Sounds good in principle, but would it not cost more overall to mobilise Sqns of engineers. Remember you have to make up their earnings to equate to their civvy job.

Where will the money come from ? more taxes ?
 
#25
Print it, dear boy, print it!
 
#26
When I was last in Kabul,DFID and Un types seemed to be 'resting there' as they felt that 'security was not good enough outside Kabul'.There's a war there FFS!
 
#27
muhandis89 said:
When I was last in Kabul,DFID and Un types seemed to be 'resting there' as they felt that 'security was not good enough outside Kabul'.There's a war there FFS!
Yes there is, so why should anyone in London, Kabul or LKG seriously expect this work to be done by civilians? On the rare occasions when its is possible to get authority to bring a civilian advisor into a remote / hostile area, it becomes a major deliberate op, when often, much the same work could have been done by a platoon / multiple patrol escort 1 or 2 military influence bods.
 
#28
muhandis89 said:
When I was last in Kabul,DFID and Un types seemed to be 'resting there' as they felt that 'security was not good enough outside Kabul'.There's a war there FFS!
DfID spent most of TELIC6 lounging by their pool. In fact, I don't recall them doing a whole lot for their £x00 per day :(
 
#29
msr said:
muhandis89 said:
When I was last in Kabul,DFID and Un types seemed to be 'resting there' as they felt that 'security was not good enough outside Kabul'.There's a war there FFS!
DfID spent most of TELIC6 lounging by their pool. In fact, I don't recall them doing a whole lot for their £x00 per day :(
In general, there is no value deploying HMG civilians to a conflict if their role requires them to operate outside main operating bases and they are not able to deploy as a part of a routine military patrol.
 
#30
To be honest I don't care whether things improve with this idea, if all it does is kill off the idle useless expensive DFiD by draining their funding that is good enough for me!
 
#31
This is utterly old hat.

For those trumpeting the US approach, they have actually adopted the UK model of deploying civilians as far forward as possible in place of the military, leaving the latter to do what they do best - providing security to allow the former to work with the local population. The State Department is, however, struggling to recruit people for AFG.

In tandem with the civilians (whether SU/DFID/FCO/State/USAID), a military team with greater freedom of manouevre (in UK-speak Military Stabilisation Support Team, in US-speak District Support Team) operates, drawing some of its manpower from the reserves of either nation. They provide the crossover, but rather than having enthusiastic military amateurs (eg 'I work in the bank & am in the TA so am now in charge of Provincial finance in a developing nation in a warzone'), people who know a little more about what they are doing fill these roles.

Outside of Afghanistan (and there is a world outside of Afghanistan), there has been plenty of work on Military Aid to Civil Effect to deliver the new task Military Assistance to Stabilisation & Development, which reflects the role reservists might play.

This is all about 2 years too late.
 
#32
Dilfor said:
people who know a little more about what they are doing fill these roles.
Do you have a link for this?

msr
 
#33
Military delivered CIMIC type stuff is an absolutely tiny part of the stabilization/reconstruction/nation building effort. There are currently hundreds of expats living outside the wire all across Afghanistan delivering programs which make the military efforts seem tiny. These programs are tied in at district to national level and employ thousands of Afghan staff and positively influence the lives of hundreds of thousands of Afghans.

These guys go where the military cannot go and deliver genuine and meaningful multi-million dollar programs in isolated and dangerous areas. It's their full time job and they plan based on the huge experience that their companies have built up in similar situations. They have a logistic chain which is responsive and can resource anything at short notice.

Let's compare that to this -

nice one cimic - same old shit

whoop-di-fcuking-doop. After 5 years in Afghanistan the CIMIC guys are still making a big thing about opening a school in an area where until 3 years ago there was practically no Taleban. The Taleban have infiltrated due to the inability of ISAF to maintain regular patrols and develop security (which should be their main consideration).

A new CIMIC force would deliver more of the same because they wouldn't have the experience, resources or freedom of movement to do anything else. Afghans don't like ISAF and want civilians to help them, not more 6 month tour soldiers who don't understand the context and don't have the time to spend doing anything apart from making PR opportunities for themselves.
 
#35
msr said:
Details of how the force would be configured had still to be decided, although Tory officials envisaged a role for the Territorial Army, calling on the skills of its builders, engineers and lawyers without the need to give them the extra security that civilian aid workers require.

[snip]

The plans will alarm the Department for International Development (DfID) created by Tony Blair in 1997, not only because of the implied criticism of its work in Afghanistan. Mr Osborne and Mr Hague have left open the possibility of drawing on DfID funding to finance the force.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6980088.ece

msr
And when said builders, engineers, etc are doing their professional task, who's providing the security required? OK, if there's a contact there will be extra bodies able to engage the enemy, but the idea is not well thought through.
 
#37
Asr - agree with much of what you say in general terms, however slightly unfair criticism of the school project. Whilst this is publicised by the MoD as a good news story (and why not), it would only have come about with the agreement and involvement of the Afghan Dept of Education and their international civilian opposite numbers at District, Provincial & National level. This is not 6 month military gong-hunters off on a frolic of their own in the manner of old (ie even 2 years ago - think washing machines), but a (relatively - this is Afghanistan) co-ordinated approach, led by Afghan governmental bodies with international development assistance provided by civilians and the military playing a small part at the very end (a bit of tactical co-ordination & security).
 

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