Timed promotion, why???

#21
Pay2000 was a method of cutting pay without it looking like a cut.

Think about it.

If under the old pay scheme your average wage was roughly level 3 or 4 on the Pay 2000, (for trades that share scales just go to 3 or 4 pay levels above starting pay) now think that the average time spent in rank is about 3 years.

To earn the same amount of money as one did under the old scheme you should do about 5 to 7 years in each rank. Thus the Army make money.

Example.

Pre Pay 2000 wages are 2k a month.
post pay 2000 wages are 1700, 1800, 1900, 2000, 2100, 2200 and 2300.

For 3 years worth of time on the pre scale you receive 72k.
For 3 years worth of time on the post scale you recieve 64,800.
 
#22
Devilishdave said:
People should not be rewarded for the fact they have been in a rank for a long time; the fact they have been in a rank for a long time should mean that they are very good at their job and thus they will promote on ability alone other wise you end up promoting dross (relative) because they have served for a long time!!

Just my take on it.


Dave
(In regard to pay 2000)
Easy to say when u r NOT for example, a 'metalsmith' or one of couple of hundred ssgt artisans who are chasing a few WOII jobs. I wouldnt say stuff like that too loudly, for blindingly obvious reasons!!
 
#23
sparky8 said:
OK pp, here's why I think we should have timed promotion.

At the moment it takes anywhere from 18 months to 24 months to turn a phase2 into a phase3 soldier. During that time, technicians are expected to complete a very hard course academically. At the end of that the Army has invested a hell of a lot of money in each person.

The carrot for guys and girls to go technician is the fact that they have quicker promotions. If we didn't promote them, we wouldn't pay them. If we dont pay them we will lose them as quickly as possible to civilian industry.

No, you haven't rubbed me up the wrong way mate, I got through very quickly and am at the top of the tree with 6 years left to push. Did I earn it? Well, I'd say I earned my LCpl for 3 years of training (ex brat). Prob not my Cpl, but then 4 years to Sergeant - maybe. I definitely earned my SSgt and I believe my Warrant after that.

I know we seem to clash a lot on here but I think perhaps you are questioning the wrong thing. Timed promotion is only bad if people don't deserve it. If someone doesn't then their line managers should be strong enough to write them the CR that they have earned and accordingly they should not be promoted. Its more a question of moral courage and leadership than writing a wrong in a system.
Using brat time can be very misleading as real 'army time' does or did not start until one was 18 years old! Using this arguement the same could be said for all vm brats who did exactly the same 6 divs.
The pay arguement is very old hat now as it is experiance that civvy street requires, not only academic quals. A tech who leaves the army after working on challies (for example) will not be snapped up by the big guns in civvy street. Nor will a tels tech who has been working on compasses or sights. the only ones who used to be snapped up were the scallie techs.
people need a reality check in this area.
The trades in civvy street now that are most highly paid are plumbers and electricians. sorry the REME binned the later.
 
#24
pensionprisoner said:
A tech who leaves the army after working on challies (for example) will not be snapped up by the big guns in civvy street. Nor will a tels tech who has been working on compasses or sights. the only ones who used to be snapped up were the scallie techs.
people need a reality check in this area.
The trades in civvy street now that are most highly paid are plumbers and electricians. sorry the REME binned the later.
Agree with the artisan trades, plumbers, brickies etc are required in the street at the moment, but the Scaly Techs haven´t been in demand for quite some time.

They were, esp when the mobile phone companies were pushing out the market, but that stopped a few years back.
 
#25
As a VM Tiffy here's my take on timed promotion with regards to the Tech Spankers within our Corps:

As has been said before, a hell of a lot of money is invested in getting them through trade training, at the end of which they have qualifications that, on civvy street, would see them into quite highly paid jobs (in comparison to their VM counterparts). A carrot is required to keep as many as possible of these techs to stay in rather than go running to civvy street at the first opportunity. As has also been said before, money alone is not a viable carrot! Ask yourself this question: If you had the qualifications and were being paid the money, would you be happy even though you were stagging on the main gate every fortnight, constantly dodging Provo Staff because your sidies are a touch long, subject to regular "corridor parades" because the CSM/SSM/BSM walked around the block that day and it wasn't good enough so block jobs are the mandatory activity for that evening??? Let's face it - not many of us would be happy with that situation. Certainly not enough of us to guarantee retention of the required amount of guys to sustain Corps commitments. Quicker promotion is a way of removing the examples I have given and more. Also, if techs received a higher wage at Crafty level then it could actually cost the MoD money, when compared to the current system, because these higher wages would have to continue throughout an individual's career. Paycut 2000 got rid of all the different pay scales across the army and was an efficient cost-cutting tool, why would the MoD reverse this?

Timed promotion may not appear fair to those of us not subject to it. But when you look at the bigger picture it's a necessity, whether we like it or not!!!

All non-techs were robbed of the chance of timed promotion for one reason or another. Some of us were not brainy enough, some of us aspired (or were persuaded by the careers office staff) to be something else when we joined up without being informed of timed promotion for techs and a few, like me, are so colourblind we failed to meet the medical criteria. Personally, I'm more than happy with the route I ended up taking because my years as a VM (Cfn-Cpl) provided me with lots of memories and experiences I would never have if I'd gone down the tech route, or indeed if I'd been promoted too quickly and was forced to become "responsible" at too early an age.

At the end of the day though - timed promotion is only available to those who get a recommendation on their CRs. Reporting Officers should have the moral courage to not give said recommendation if it's not warranted. That way the argument of techs not being fit to wear the rank would disappear, because only those that are fit to wear the rank would be promoted. For any Reporting Officers out there who use the word "retention" to sway their decision on whether to recommend promotion or not in this situation should ask the question "Would I rather have a crap Cfn or a crap LCpl?" Or "Would I rather have a crap LCpl than a crap Cpl?" and so on.

Having read this back I'm not sure whether or not to expect to be ambushed.....I eagerly await to find out!!!!!!!!!
 
#26
An argument that has gone on for many years.. But what I do object to is

"Nor will a tels tech who has been working on compasses or sights"

Come on for Gods sake I know we do not exist on paper but it is the Instrument Technician that fixed the sights and compasses..

No wonder i got a pay cut!!!
 
#27
Inst_Techs_Rule said:
An argument that has gone on for many years.. But what I do object to is

"Nor will a tels tech who has been working on compasses or sights"

Come on for Gods sake I know we do not exist on paper but it is the Instrument Technician that fixed the sights and compasses..

No wonder i got a pay cut!!!

o.k call me a wnaker i had a brain farrt whilst typing!!
 
#28
Alpha-Mech said:
As a VM Tiffy here's my take on timed promotion with regards to the Tech Spankers within our Corps:

quote]

firstly thanks for the very long reply,

youwrote<
If you had the qualifications and were being paid the money, would you be happy even though you were stagging on the main gate every fortnight, constantly dodging Provo Staff because your sidies are a touch long, subject to regular "corridor parades" because the CSM/SSM/BSM walked around the block that day and it wasn't good enough so block jobs are the mandatory activity for that evening??? Let's face it - not many of us would be happy with that situation.

we say> so its ok for other trades to stag on? But its too good for new techs?

What the techs get for quals you can do in a college in half the time.
Wake up to the 21st century, TECHS do not walk into highly paid jobs in civvy street, it is a MYTH!!!!
Techs do not get Financial Retention Incentives, but VMs do, therefore should they be given time promotion to keep them in!!
Read the corp instructions, a cy will get a tech promoted, the board is a farce, when would a vm pick up with a CY?

you wrote>
I'm more than happy with the route I ended up taking because my years as a VM (Cfn-Cpl) provided me with lots of memories and experiences I would never have if I'd gone down the tech route, or indeed if I'd been promoted too quickly and was forced to become "responsible" at too early an age
we say>enough said.
 
#29
The problem here is not wage but responsibility.............................I was allways put infront of the CO to be promoted, and allways told your rank is an ARMY rank , ie if I was with a infantary Bn then it was because I was aggod as/ respected as/ expected to do as an inf L/CPL, CPL etc.................. how the hell can these guys do that?Pay thyem yes, rank , I think not , it is just putting them in a place they do not want to be , especially with current opps.
 

Fugly

LE
DirtyBAT
#30
I'm bound to get a bite on this, but here goes anyway.

Referring to the whole "you still need the recommendation in order to promote/very few techs get a shite CR to negate promotion" argument, I feel that the tech world attracts a "better class of customer" as it were. An individual who has the drive within him to push himself through the academia required to become a technician usually has little problem transferring this drive into his work, thus achieving a suitable CR for promotion.

In order to achieve Sgt, a tech will have spent between 2 to 2.5 years at Arborfield being trained, dependant on trade. Not including equipment courses, or SCLM.

This is NOT a dig at VM's, etc, but I am merely highlighting the fact that the standards required by the tech courses are reflected by the individuals that attend and pass them - and are then deservedly promoted. Yes, a few bad apples slip through - name me a trade that doesn't have them!
 
#31
pensionprisoner said:
Alpha-Mech said:
As a VM Tiffy here's my take on timed promotion with regards to the Tech Spankers within our Corps:

quote]

firstly thanks for the very long reply,

youwrote<
If you had the qualifications and were being paid the money, would you be happy even though you were stagging on the main gate every fortnight, constantly dodging Provo Staff because your sidies are a touch long, subject to regular "corridor parades" because the CSM/SSM/BSM walked around the block that day and it wasn't good enough so block jobs are the mandatory activity for that evening??? Let's face it - not many of us would be happy with that situation.

we say> so its ok for other trades to stag on? But its too good for new techs?
No! But refer back to my statement about the bigger picture etc etc and retaining as many as possible when there is the ability for them to achieve well paid civvy jobs with the quals they have.

What the techs get for quals you can do in a college in half the time. The academic side of it maybe. But you certainly couldn't get the practical experience you'd gain at your first unit, before you were able to sign off. That aside though, I'm not sure what your statement has to do with timed promotion???

Wake up to the 21st century, TECHS do not walk into highly paid jobs in civvy street, it is a MYTH!!!!
Techs don't have to go on to be techs in civvy street. There are a plethra of jobs out there with the requirement for a higher lever of mathematical skills which techs have been educated to on their course. Analysts for example can start off on about £30K - do Cfn earn that much??? I think not!!! Have a look on any job website and you'll see exactly what a lot of firms are paying for what someone with REME tech quals has to offer. Once you've done that then come back and tell me to wake up to the 21st century!!!

Techs do not get Financial Retention Incentives, but VMs do, therefore should they be given time promotion to keep them in!!
The FRI is a temporary measure to combat the current shortage of LCpl-Cpl VMs. It will be phased out once numbers rise back up. Timed promotion to Sgt within the tech trades is there to alleviate the ongoing situation that has been mentioned no end of times here - THAT THEY HAVE ENOUGH QUALIFICATIONS TO EARN THEMSELVES A HIGHER WAGE IN CIVVY STREET.

Read the corp instructions, a cy will get a tech promoted, the board is a farce, when would a vm pick up with a CY?
Never - because a VM is on time AND merit promotion. I thought this was what the argument was all about??????????????????????? (In my opinion a CY CR shouldn't exist but that's another argument)
you wrote>
I'm more than happy with the route I ended up taking because my years as a VM (Cfn-Cpl) provided me with lots of memories and experiences I would never have if I'd gone down the tech route, or indeed if I'd been promoted too quickly and was forced to become "responsible" at too early an age
we say>enough said. Is there an elaboration of this remark which provides an argument against timed promotion then????? That is, after all, what the thread is about so please do explain!!!
 
#32
Alpha-Mech said:
pensionprisoner said:
Alpha-Mech said:
As a VM Tiffy here's my take on timed promotion with regards to the Tech Spankers within our Corps:

quote]

firstly thanks for the very long reply,

youwrote<
If you had the qualifications and were being paid the money, would you be happy even though you were stagging on the main gate every fortnight, constantly dodging Provo Staff because your sidies are a touch long, subject to regular "corridor parades" because the CSM/SSM/BSM walked around the block that day and it wasn't good enough so block jobs are the mandatory activity for that evening??? Let's face it - not many of us would be happy with that situation.

we say> so its ok for other trades to stag on? But its too good for new techs?
No! But refer back to my statement about the bigger picture etc etc and retaining as many as possible when there is the ability for them to achieve well paid civvy jobs with the quals they have.

What the techs get for quals you can do in a college in half the time. The academic side of it maybe. But you certainly couldn't get the practical experience you'd gain at your first unit, before you were able to sign off. That aside though, I'm not sure what your statement has to do with timed promotion???

Wake up to the 21st century, TECHS do not walk into highly paid jobs in civvy street, it is a MYTH!!!!
Techs don't have to go on to be techs in civvy street. There are a plethra of jobs out there with the requirement for a higher lever of mathematical skills which techs have been educated to on their course. Analysts for example can start off on about £30K - do Cfn earn that much??? I think not!!! Have a look on any job website and you'll see exactly what a lot of firms are paying for what someone with REME tech quals has to offer. Once you've done that then come back and tell me to wake up to the 21st century!!!

Techs do not get Financial Retention Incentives, but VMs do, therefore should they be given time promotion to keep them in!!
The FRI is a temporary measure to combat the current shortage of LCpl-Cpl VMs. It will be phased out once numbers rise back up. Timed promotion to Sgt within the tech trades is there to alleviate the ongoing situation that has been mentioned no end of times here - THAT THEY HAVE ENOUGH QUALIFICATIONS TO EARN THEMSELVES A HIGHER WAGE IN CIVVY STREET.

Read the corp instructions, a cy will get a tech promoted, the board is a farce, when would a vm pick up with a CY?
Never - because a VM is on time AND merit promotion. I thought this was what the argument was all about??????????????????????? (In my opinion a CY CR shouldn't exist but that's another argument)
you wrote>
I'm more than happy with the route I ended up taking because my years as a VM (Cfn-Cpl) provided me with lots of memories and experiences I would never have if I'd gone down the tech route, or indeed if I'd been promoted too quickly and was forced to become "responsible" at too early an age
we say>enough said. Is there an elaboration of this remark which provides an argument against timed promotion then????? That is, after all, what the thread is about so please do explain!!!i shall do after my show parade.
 
#33
Can I just inform everyone on here that I am no less unhappy than any other black hand tradesmen with regards to techs getting promoted quicker than us. My argument is based purely on the fact that the Corps could severely struggle to sustain the required numbers of techs if timed promotion were not in place; it is not based on my preferences and/or beliefs!!!! Just thought I should make that clear before I'm completely ostricised!!!

A-M
 
#34
You don't have to justify having a common sense approach A-M.

ASS - don't tell them all we are friends mate, you'll lose your standing with the black handers! ;) Your point is a very valid and pertinent one. Im surprised noone has reflected on the last SSgt to WO2 board which saw a huge number of VMs promoted over technicians as they were boarded together. I spoke to my SSgts the week after and explained to them that they can no longer go to work and get promoted as of right. They must do everything they can to fill the 1st and 2nd ROs box on their SJAR. Anyone who has written a lot of CRs will tel you how easy it becomes to write a good one when there is lots of evidence that they have put themselves out and about.
As an interest point I believe that the last board saw Artisan's scoring very highly. Perhaps RSM is in the offing in the future? I hope so.
On the point of financial incentives for VMs, we are doing very well on recruitment at the moment. The current financial climate has seen les guys sign off and more sign on. We wont have that incentive soon I think more's the pity.
 
#35
pensionprisoner said:
Wake up to the 21st century, TECHS do not walk into highly paid jobs in civvy street, it is a MYTH!!!!
I've done my class 1, did the Modern Appenticeship thing with VT and then spoke to the IET about some professional recognition.

Then I started sending out letters to various firms in the back of the mag. Seems to be that REME Tech = good starting wage of about 25k+ with most firms.

Now that to me sounds like highly paid and the quals I've got are available to ANY technician following class 1 and SCLM.

Think I'll stay in the Army though. Promotion seems quite good and the scenery changes every once in a while.

Oh, and my CRs? a handful of As and Bs. Had a C once too. Didn't get promoted off that one and had to wait a while...
 
#36
This has always been a bone of contention and not one that I liked to gnaw on when I was in. I had my chance to choose my trade and after finding out all about all of them, I decided to be a VM.

I then chose not to follow the Artificer stream and spent a very happy 17 years applying my trade and enjoying myself before leaving as a Sgt.

I have been out for nearly 2 years now and am in a £40k management job in the Rail Industry - an £8k a year jump from my last Army pay scale.

You do not need to be a brainy Tech or have the Tiffy quals to get a good job in Civ Div, just apply what the Army teaches us all at SNCO level with respect to management skills, write your CV in civ speak and present yourself well at interview.

I also took advantage of the Chartered Management Institute offer that came with my SCLM and now hold a Level 3 Certificate in Management and membership of afore-mentioned professional body (yearly fees paid for by my employer ;) )

Time promotion is just another bandwagon to be jumped on by those who did not choose a trade which has it and are now miffed that they did not have the balls to make the choice/brains to make the grade. Let's face it, if you were that bothered about time promotion, you would have joined as a tech :roll:

Didn't get promoted but the tech with 3 years less service did? Dry your eyes princess and work harder for a better CR :lol:


I am now putting on my nomex overalls and waiting for a good flaming :lol:
 
#37
pensionprisoner said:
Devilishdave said:
People should not be rewarded for the fact they have been in a rank for a long time; the fact they have been in a rank for a long time should mean that they are very good at their job and thus they will promote on ability alone other wise you end up promoting dross (relative) because they have served for a long time!!

Just my take on it.


Dave
(In regard to pay 2000)
Easy to say when u r NOT for example, a 'metalsmith' or one of couple of hundred ssgt artisans who are chasing a few WOII jobs. I wouldnt say stuff like that too loudly, for blindingly obvious reasons!!
The point I am making still stands, the best Sgts should be promoted to SSgt and SSgts to WO2 no mater how tight the promotion triangle is at the top not those that are not as good but have done more time.

NB I don’t just apply this model to the Artisan stream whilst making my point.
 
#38
gasmark9 said:
You do not need to be a brainy Tech or have the Tiffy quals to get a good job in Civ Div, just apply what the Army teaches us all at SNCO level with respect to management skills, write your CV in civ speak and present yourself well at interview.
I totally agree with the above. I think most trades within the REME have an excellent opportunity to do well in civvy street. You cannot expect to walk into the same job and crack on where you left off in the army, you do need to diversify a little. IE as a VM on civvy street you are not going to earn lots of money unless perhaps you go into business yourself which is hard as you need abou 30-40k worth of tools and special equipment nowadays to keep up with your average garage. As a VM you can fall into service engineer, commissioning engineer and mechanical fitter type jobs easily which all start at around 25k+.

Technicians can drop into similar jobs but with an electrical/electronics bias. Testing, commissioning, PLC programmingetc etc. These pay similar to the above jobs for VM's.

My first job was as a mechanical commissioning engineer and after my 6 months probation i was on 30k a yr plus expenses and a company credit card. After being with the company a year i took over as the Works Manager for same company and had a payrise to 35k. I left after 6 months in that job as it was more hassle than it was worth and went back on the tools in the Field Service/Plant Installation side. My first year in this role saw me earn 42k, 52k the next year and by April this year i should have earnt 63k. Not bad for NVQ 3 in engineering maintenance.

I think a lot of people on this thread have made good points for and valid points why sometimes timed promotion isnt so good. I think it comes down to the individual getting promoted in many cases.

I do think the REME should wake up slightly and realise that its not just the Techs that can go out and transfer the skills they have gained in the REME. Every trade if the individual is of the correct mindset can do well out here and they should be rewarded and retained accordingly.
 
#39
ArmySurplusSpecial said:
gasmark9 said:
You do not need to be a brainy Tech or have the Tiffy quals to get a good job in Civ Div, just apply what the Army teaches us all at SNCO level with respect to management skills, write your CV in civ speak and present yourself well at interview.

I do think the REME should wake up slightly and realise that its not just the Techs that can go out and transfer the skills they have gained in the REME. Every trade if the individual is of the correct mindset can do well out here and they should be rewarded and retained accordingly.
100% agree.
 
#40
I think my only gripe and having been there is the 1 year from LCpl to Cpl.

For me it's the biggest jump and having served with RA/Inf then I would say that's where the situation needs looking at.

Then again it all evens out for those that go down the Tiffy route as having recently been present at an MCM roadshow, the VM's statistically reach SSgt quicker than Techs.
 

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