Time to cut Ulster loose?

Should NI be cut loose

  • Time for a province independence referendum

    Votes: 25 31.3%
  • Union with the south

    Votes: 21 26.3%
  • Commonwealth status

    Votes: 9 11.3%
  • Full rule from Westminster

    Votes: 19 23.8%
  • Home rule from Stormont

    Votes: 20 25.0%

  • Total voters
    80
Don't forget a almost mutiny among Officers @ Curragh camp in March 1914

What I always found interesting was in april the Ulster Volunteers got 24,000 rifles from the Germans and this was not considered an act of treason....
[/QUOTE]
There are lots of strange issues that are assigned to the troubled Emerald Isle, though in fairness, they had less to do with the Irish and more to do with the extension or preservation of percieved British national interests. I suspect too that the Kaiser's generosity towards the Carsonites had more to do with Germany's colonial ambition than any empathy with the North.

Consider also the mass recruitment of over 700 serving RIC men and Auxiliaries in 1920 for the British Gendarmerie in Palestine. That went well! And when it all turned to the brown stuff the solution was to appoint a former head of the RUC to try to sort it out. Guess what he did? He built a series of reinforced joint Police and Army Forts across what is now Palestine and parts of Israel ......... bet you thought these were invented in South Armagh in the 70s/80s. Nothing like a failed blast from the past being presented as a 'new' investment in Ulster's security.

The late Roy Jenkins of Lib/Lab and SDP fame once made the point much more truthfully than anyone......."Although the British government can claim great expertise in the world of politics, solving the problems of Ireland isn't part of it."
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
There are lots of strange issues that are assigned to the troubled Emerald Isle, though in fairness, they had less to do with the Irish and more to do with the extension or preservation of percieved British national interests. I suspect too that the Kaiser's generosity towards the Carsonites had more to do with Germany's colonial ambition than any empathy with the North.

Consider also the mass recruitment of over 700 serving RIC men and Auxiliaries in 1920 for the British Gendarmerie in Palestine. That went well! And when it all turned to the brown stuff the solution was to appoint a former head of the RUC to try to sort it out. Guess what he did? He built a series of reinforced joint Police and Army Forts across what is now Palestine and parts of Israel ......... bet you thought these were invented in South Armagh in the 70s/80s. Nothing like a failed blast from the past being presented as a 'new' investment in Ulster's security.

The late Roy Jenkins of Lib/Lab and SDP fame once made the point much more truthfully than anyone......."Although the British government can claim great expertise in the world of politics, solving the problems of Ireland isn't part of it."[/QUOTE]
I think you will find that the first British use of Blockhouses was during the second south African war, Kitchener I believe.
 
You certainly bloody do.
I had my first visit to Glasgee as a grown-up some 20 years ago and was shocked by the sheer nastiness of some of the sectarianism - which seemed even worse than in the Province
When Liam went to Glasgow, Billy lost no time in reminding him that he was a Fenian........and informed him that he was illegitimate too!
 
There are lots of strange issues that are assigned to the troubled Emerald Isle, though in fairness, they had less to do with the Irish and more to do with the extension or preservation of percieved British national interests. I suspect too that the Kaiser's generosity towards the Carsonites had more to do with Germany's colonial ambition than any empathy with the North.

Consider also the mass recruitment of over 700 serving RIC men and Auxiliaries in 1920 for the British Gendarmerie in Palestine. That went well! And when it all turned to the brown stuff the solution was to appoint a former head of the RUC to try to sort it out. Guess what he did? He built a series of reinforced joint Police and Army Forts across what is now Palestine and parts of Israel ......... bet you thought these were invented in South Armagh in the 70s/80s. Nothing like a failed blast from the past being presented as a 'new' investment in Ulster's security.

The late Roy Jenkins of Lib/Lab and SDP fame once made the point much more truthfully than anyone......."Although the British government can claim great expertise in the world of politics, solving the problems of Ireland isn't part of it."
I think you will find that the first British use of Blockhouses was during the second south African war, Kitchener I believe.[/QUOTE]
There you go, I was even more right than I thought :mrgreen:
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Kitchener was the head of the Indian Army, weighed in to sort out the uppity Boers before retiring in the UK. Impending war put paid to that plan!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
You can understand why block houses and cleared areas were seen as useful, they starved the Boers out and gave us a presence we otherwise would have struggled to maintain.
In NI it was useful to have troops on hilltops dug in watching major routes and acting as patrol bases.
 
You can understand why block houses and cleared areas were seen as useful, they starved the Boers out and gave us a presence we otherwise would have struggled to maintain.
In NI it was useful to have troops on hilltops dug in watching major routes and acting as patrol bases.
It was also a response to the fact that the South Armagn/Border Brigade had successfully denied us vehicular control of the boder area.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
The late Roy Jenkins of Lib/Lab and SDP fame once made the point much more truthfully than anyone......."Although the British government can claim great expertise in the world of politics, solving the problems of Ireland isn't part of it."
Jim Callaghan was home sec I believe when the likes of Bernadette Devlin called for the troops to be deployed. Allegedly he said deploying the Army wont be difficult, getting them out again will be.
To be honest we could have withdrawn right up to internment. Thats really when it all went to ratshit! Binning the B Specials was needed but the loss of "Intelligence" meant we probably put ourselves back about 4 years and internment was the only way. The problem became keeping the sods locked up and treated as criminals not revolutionaries.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Jim Callaghan was home sec I believe when the likes of Bernadette Devlin called for the troops to be deployed. Allegedly he said deploying the Army wont be difficult, getting them out again will be.
To be honest we could have withdrawn right up to internment. Thats really when it all went to ratshit! Binning the B Specials was needed but the loss of "Intelligence" meant we probably put ourselves back about 4 years and internment was the only way. The problem became keeping the sods locked up and treated as criminals not revolutionaries.
It was also a response to the fact that the South Armagn/Border Brigade had successfully denied us vehicular control of the boder area.
The Rural areas would always need a fixed fortification presence, even if they had stayed away from IEDs we would have set too many patterns and become vulnerable to vehicle ambushes by gunfire. Them attacking PVCPs with mortars and finally section attacks was proof that they were working, denying the enemy free use and (sadly) acting as target meant they had to attack or be shown as ineffective. There were many campaigns against fixed bases over the years, it does show that they were a problem for the bad guys.
 
The Rural areas would always need a fixed fortification presence, even if they had stayed away from IEDs we would have set too many patterns and become vulnerable to vehicle ambushes by gunfire. Them attacking PVCPs with mortars and finally section attacks was proof that they were working, denying the enemy free use and (sadly) acting as target meant they had to attack or be shown as ineffective. There were many campaigns against fixed bases over the years, it does show that they were a problem for the bad guys.
All four of the early South Armagh/North Down/East Tyrone TAOR Brigade HQs reported similar findings on their experiences during 70/71 and early 72 (prior to the deployment of 3 Bde). IEDs were a common issue, though 5 and 19 Bde offered different solutions. The post tour reports also illustrate the effect of 'personality' on different outcomes. In all, somewhat inconsistent arrangements at the tactical level. Everything contributed to what was in retrospect, a sad time for all concerned......though the somewhat poor choice of words by the CO 45 RM Cdo who said that NI was the best training area he had experienced probably didn't sit too well with those units that were taking casualties.
 
Not using the roads around South Armagh didn't in any way stop us deploying all over our area. We had exceptional access to helicopters. Scouts and Puma's.

I travelled so much on helicopters in one tour in 1974/75, thirty years later when my family gave me an hours lesson in one as a birthday present, I was flying it ten minutes after the pilot got me in the air. After we landed, he told me he had never had somebody take over the controls and fly so quickly.

We did bring a couple of land rovers into Crossmaglen. We kept them for two weeks and then they went back. No point in chancing your arm too far.
 
Not using the roads around South Armagh didn't in any way stop us deploying all over our area. We had exceptional access to helicopters. Scouts and Puma's.

I travelled so much on helicopters in one tour in 1974/75, thirty years later when my family gave me an hours lesson in one as a birthday present, I was flying it ten minutes after the pilot got me in the air. After we landed, he told me he had never had somebody take over the controls and fly so quickly.

We did bring a couple of land rovers into Crossmaglen. We kept them for two weeks and then they went back. No point in chancing your arm too far.
A member of the mafiosa chancing his arm......next you'll be claiming they marched with 'swagger' or wore black buttons or some other nonsense such as doing drill based solely on bugle commands! And what is all this nonsense about 140 ppm.....even Stephensons rocket couldnt go that fast.
 
The same sectarianism I've seen with my own family in Scotland
Nationality per se isn't a sectarian issue. The failure to ignore it on issues of equality is the problem. Closely linked of course, is 'citizanship', never equal, but providing it is concieved with 'fairness', it shouldnt be an issue.

If sectarianism could be removed from Ieland, I would predict that North and South would find much more comfort in their shared Irishmess.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
We did bring a couple of land rovers into Crossmaglen. We kept them for two weeks and then they went back. No point in chancing your arm too far.
We had in xmg at various times, Saracens, ferrets and pigs, the last pig I saw had a ferret turret fitted!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Oddly enough I think that because Scotland is less segregated the impact to the individual can be more in your face and long lasting, as in NI you may not encounter such sectarianism unless you need to enter the opposition strongholds. Perhaps removing the peace lines is helping this. Scotland though is fecked. Stay out of any built up area containing more than 100 dwellings and you will be ok!
 

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